Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[SuperiorIronman]

From what I can tell it is a single panel cameo. Let's see if Marvel ever do anything to address this. Certainly the 1610 Maker seems to be under the impression that the 1610 is no more, so unless Marvel address it directly we have to assume it is a look alike world. It would be logical to address this in the Fantastic Four if Marvel ever intend to bring that universe back into play properly. I don't think they plan to relaunch the Ultimate line any time soon.

The Ultimate universe made a few cameos since then. It does once again exist, it's just that there is no comic line for it. It's been back for awhile.

[vitruvian]

I have a different opinion. I like Cap with integrity. As to whether the Earth was any worse than before Secret Wars and Beyonders, I think it’s roughly similar. My beef is I’m seeing million year Avengers that never existed before. That history is false. The new Ghost Rider is from Battleworld? Spider-Gwen was an advertising campaign? This silly little pink girl from the real Earth thinks she’s in a comic world? Hulk Cho doesn’t work. ANAD is a mishmash of executive decisions made in the promotional department. Hell, let’s form a Battleworld, and just swipe all the these offbeat characters and put them in the ANAD. It’s not necessarily worse than what came before, just kooky.

Not every retcon is necessarily a product of going from the 7th to the 8th Cosmos via Battleworld and Secret Wars. The million BC Avengers could have been introduced as a retcon at any point before Secret Wars, just like the different 1950s and 1960s versions (remember Kraven as a proto-Avenger?) were before. The Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider was introduced before Secret Wars, as was Spider-Gwen in Spiderverse and her own stories from well before, in an alternate universe basically the same as the one she now inhabits. Gwenpool and Cho becoming Hulk are more recent, but not ever shown to be dependent on new rules for a new universe.

[vitruvian]

You seem to be missing that the current prime universe is a best match mash-up of the 616 and the 1610, neither of which exist any more (and no those pages in Spider-Men were not the 1610).

Those pages were not precisely the same as the old 1610, no - notably not having Morales Prime living in that universe, as well as hints that some of the later BS that happened in the latter days of the original 1610 didn't take place - but it is apparently a new version. Not sure which side of the line between 'restoration' and 'Franklin playing around with new ideas' it fell on, although the fact that it isn't seen until somewhat later suggests the latter.

[vitruvian]

From what I can tell it is a single panel cameo. Let's see if Marvel ever do anything to address this. Certainly the 1610 Maker seems to be under the impression that the 1610 is no more, so unless Marvel address it directly we have to assume it is a look alike world. It would be logical to address this in the Fantastic Four if Marvel ever intend to bring that universe back into play properly. I don't think they plan to relaunch the Ultimate line any time soon.

That I agree with... as well as that it is a 1610 'dupe' of sorts and not the original restored exactly as it was, or the home to the Maker et al. But still, it's there for whatever writers want to use it in future, and to interpret those panels and cameos as they will (and as editors allow).

[JKtheMac]

The Ultimate universe made a few cameos since then. It does once again exist, it's just that there is no comic line for it. It's been back for awhile.

I count two so far. Neither convince me of this at all. Bendis wanted to wave a quick goodbye to his old universe and sentimentally showed one that passingly looked like the one he wrote in. Nobody at Marvel commented upon it when the internet grew curious because there is nothing to comment upon. It isn't even in the same state as it would be if it had continued.

The second appearance is a single panel that really just references that first Bendis cameo. A couple of the same characters and then gone. Are there any more you are aware of compared to the literally dozens of references to the fact that the 1610 is gone? That multiple 1610 characters are running around the MU? That the editors told us point blank that the Ultimate universe and the 616 were destroyed? Cameos are not stories. Until we get a story to explain what this universe represents we don't know what it is. It may be a red herring. It may be a similar universe just like the thousands of universes similar to the 616.

It is not really worth worrying about until somebody sits down and actually writes about it. Only then will there be some context. Until then it is just a potential story. Nothing has been written about it. Most importantly, until otherwise written, the MU is officially made up of a mixture of the 616 and 1610. That new story could be a retcon but it wont be in effect until it hits the shelves, even if it references these cameos.

Does anyone seriously want to see the Ultimate universe back? What would be the point? We have the MCU for that kind of material now.

[mrbrklyn]

It’s fair criticism. I hold to a similar view myself. The sales may be good, so we just won’t know. But I’d like a dream sequence to end ANAD.

If they start to get hung up on continuity then they are going to be complete messed up. Marvel's Continuity is worst than a Jackson Pollock, and a Jackson Pollock is far more emotionally satisfying. QUesada hates it and I doubt they will let obscure continuety destroy a good FF lauching

Quesada regarding earth 616:

I never use it, I hate the term pure and simple and agree with Tom’s assessment of it. I can’t remember ever hearing it in the office and only really see it used online for the most part. I think the term really came into vogue when the Ultimate Universe came into prominence, but in my world, the language and distinctions are simple, there is the Marvel Universe and the Ultimate Universe. Anything other than that reeks of all that DC Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth Prime stuff which I’ve never really taken to, but then again, I got into DC when they got rid of all that stuff so it was from and for a different era than my own.

All they need to do is focus on writing something exciting and true to character for the FF and it wil be a huge hit. How do they mess this up? If they get hung up on political correctness, timeline continuity, and put their own dieing desire to put their own personal stamp on the FF before they get themselves stable, that is how they mess this up. And that apears to be the route they are on at the moment.

If they focus on writing good stories, they will do fine.

[mrbrklyn]

I have read dozens of interviews and second hand accounts of Kirby, being an avid reader of The Kirby Collector. I have also read his work widely. I can pattern recognise as well as the next guy. IMO Slott's work here is following a pattern he established on Silver Surfer and in turn is following a Kirby inspired pattern. If I can see direct influences and a similar sensibility in Slott's work then I can meaningfully project that IMO Kirby would be pleased.

That is not an objective statement so I don't need to run it past Kirby himself.

I think you do, actually, FWIW, or discuss it with someone who actually has met him or talked to him

My point is your assertion is even more biased towards your perspective, you are not actually using any evidence apart from you don't like it. I am actively using a direct comparison of tone, style, choice of artist, etc. Your wording suggests a dead man you haven't met would share your own views. My wording suggests that works of art with similar content and sensibilities are probably created by artists with similar sensibilities.

Sorry you would need to demonstrate that, not just assert it. So far everything you have said has been dismissive and that isn't how one objectively analyses a story. You sound to me like you are using pseudo literary analysis methods to assert your opinions. If you wish to prove otherwise that is entirely up to you and your methodology.

There is even a major flaw in your argument because the book did get past the editors. At least one of whom, Brevoort, would run you ragged with his depth of knowledge about the MU. I have heard him speak, and dozens of people I have listened to and respect have attested to his encyclopedic knowledge of the MU and specifically his favourite subject the Fantastic Four. I would trust him over any non-professional opinion.

I am not going to give you my personal opinion about Brevoort, because, well, frankly is a little leager in my overall experience with comics.... I suppose I was lucky enough to grow up in a time of enormous creative energy in the Comics business. I already had a collection of 8K comics, and sold Amazing Fantasy 3 times before Brevoort made his first internships at Marvel

However, to adress the issues having to do with literary methods, I have already outlined all I wanted to on those principles AND either you failed to read it or you ignored it, or you didn't recognize it. But I am not rewriting it and I'm not going to give a university level creative writing course here (nor am I qualified to actually). I told you how it is. There are rules for naration, and voice, and plotting and when you hand in a work to a professor at the university level, they will grade it according to those rules. Now you don't need to follow them all the time, but when you break the narritive, destroy the plot, and fail to provide adequate voice, then your work will flop.

There are princples of story telling that can and need to be mastered, and they are learnable and they are objective. You can accept them or not, and it affects you more than me. But if they don't change direction on the FF title fairly quickly, it will just langish like all too many Marvel titles.

BTW - don't bet that the people you meet here aren't old enough or never talked with Kirby (or others). 40 years ago the Comics business was a very small business and largely centered in my immediate vicinity.

[Ravin' Ray]

What say we all adapt a wait-and-see attitude over the success or failure of the Fantastic Four before definitively saying it will fall flat on its face? Then give credit to the person whose prediction was correct.

[mrbrklyn]

What say we all adapt a wait-and-see attitude over the success or failure of the Fantastic Four before definitively saying it will fall flat on its face? Then give credit to the person whose prediction was correct.

It is not necessary to wait that long. It already is a failure and it has been exploitative of the fan base. I already have 1000 FF stories in my house, so I don't need to read anymore. I'll look over it and see if it improves, but what has been produced thus far is definitely a failure... which sucks because I was really looking forward to it. I'll stick with Mister Miracle for now and continue searching for something worthwhile to read. I don't want to read gimicks. I want well thought out, suspensful, visually exciting story.

[Ravin' Ray]

It is not necessary to wait that long. It already is a failure and it has been exploitative of the fan base.

I disagree with your two-issue assumption.

It is your choice to not wait it out over the long term.

[Prof. Warren]

I am not going to give you my personal opinion about Brevoort, because, well, frankly is a little leager in my overall experience with comics.... I suppose I was lucky enough to grow up in a time of enormous creative energy in the Comics business. I already had a collection of 8K comics, and sold Amazing Fantasy 3 times before Brevoort made his first internships at Marvel.

All of which is a way of just telling us that you're old. Congratulations.

While you've spent a lifetime buying comics and forming all kinds of opinions about them, in less time Brevoort has actually made a huge career for himself in comics.

He's likely bought and read more comics than you but, more importantly, the opinions he formed in a lifetime of being a fan are actually important because he can apply them to the actual creation of comics, rather than just blowing hot air about them online.

[JackDaw]

What say we all adapt a wait-and-see attitude over the success or failure of the Fantastic Four before definitively saying it will fall flat on its face? Then give credit to the person whose prediction was correct.

Would you define “fall flat on face” by eventual sales?

I can’t see a better way of doing it...but I’ve no real idea what would constitute success using that criteria.

I think we’d all be surprised if the initial sales of 350k doesn’t fall rapidly, however good the comic is. That, alas, is way industry works now.

I think some one put earlier that they would be happy if sales stabilised at 80k....say around that after the 12 issue mark and stays steady.

I thought at time that was actually ambitious in today’s market.....a lot of very good comics don’t sell anything like that. (Wonder what Jonathan Hickman run was selling at, halfway in?)

[CaptCleghorn]

Would you define “fall flat on face” by eventual sales?

I can’t see a better way of doing it...but I’ve no real idea what would constitute success using that criteria.

I think we’d all be surprised if the initial sales of 350k doesn’t fall rapidly, however good the comic is. That, alas, is way industry works now.

I think some one put earlier that they would be happy if sales stabilised at 80k....say around that after the 12 issue mark and stays steady.

I thought at time that was actually ambitious in today’s market.....a lot of very good comics don’t sell anything like that. (Wonder what Jonathan Hickman run was selling at, halfway in?)

The FF 646 numbers had to be buoyed by dozens of variant covers as well as anticipation after a three year hiatus. Marvel's numbers people are probably looking at variants sold and the potential effect through the first few issue until at least 650 with the Thing marriage. 12 issues out seems to me like it would be far enough out to be separated from the initial hubbub. Coates' Black Panther may be a model for FF to have numbers compare to s regards post first issue drop-off.

[mrbrklyn]

I disagree with your two-issue assumption.

It is your choice to not wait it out over the long term.

I'll always keep an eye on it. I've owned every FF since the first issue

[mrbrklyn]

The FF 646 numbers had to be buoyed by dozens of variant covers as well as anticipation after a three year hiatus. Marvel's numbers people are probably looking at variants sold and the potential effect through the first few issue until at least 650 with the Thing marriage. 12 issues out seems to me like it would be far enough out to be separated from the initial hubbub. Coates' Black Panther may be a model for FF to have numbers compare to s regards post first issue drop-off.

We have been through this before with the 30th aniversity Spiderman and X-man blowouts in the 1990's. This seems even worst though.