Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[CaptCleghorn]

You can miss me with those antiquated gender roles. We’re not in the 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries anymore. Women are allowed to be more than the spouse and mother to the men’s children.

I've mentioned this many times in the past (and probably in this very thread) that because of the long history of the FF, we have Sue who was created in the early 1960s with most of her personality set by 1970 and now she is presented as a well rounded 21st century woman. Compared with the boys, who basically just quit smoking and stopped wearing hats, Sue needed to develop a LOT more to adjust to her growing role within the team and American society itself. The woman who went up in the rocket needs to be a full-grown woman dealing with 21st century America and not just "the girl" with a Jackie Kennedy hairdo.

The old characterization often doesn't fit anymore.

[phantom1592]

I wonder if the overall plan is to replace Johnny and Ben? I mean, Reed, Sue, Franklin and Val could be the 'new Fantastic Four'... There are in fact FOUR of them... and they ARE a family with wacky cosmic powers... So most of the dynamic that people say is so important to the FF are present.

I really hope they do NOT go that route... but when was the last time Marvel gave us back something that we were hoping for and NOT yank the rug out from under us :P

Besides... another reason I hate the kids in general... is that it'll be the Fantastic Four with six members... Hurts my brain. >.< SOMETHING is going to twist the dynamic around somehow...

[Shadowcat]

I wonder if Slott will take us on a Legion Lost type of stories, exploring the other universes that Franklin & the Molecule Man created during their adventures

[Crimz]

You are conjouring this up and it is not even true. Any of the Marvel characters have been available for any storyline and title at will since the very beginning, and they and Susan Storm do pop up all over the Marvel universe. The only FF member that has been really treated different has been the Thing with Marvel Two and One. Kids love the Thing. And Johny has done some solo work with Spider-man. There has never been any storyline or plot that has restricted the character of Susan Storm because of her children. In fact, she has a great house keeper who watches the kids, who herself became a central character.

It would be great if that was the case, and Susan semi-retired because of her motherhood. It would show that motherhood, and raising a family was as important has running off the Negative Zone and to waste time on a career (or concieving child?), but alas, it is not true. She has always selfishly put her career first since the day she got onto the rocket with Reed and Ben and Johnny. And then she flirts with Namor!

She nearly left Reed somewhere around FF140+ and toyed with Namor, and asked to move to Connecticut and all the other interesting and fascinating things that complex family life does to women and the men that love them, but never ever has it been a crutch for any inactivity, and in fact, she has never been inactive. She has been a linchpin Marvel character from the time of FF#1

I am not conjuring up anything. The minute anyone says maybe Sue should go here or there, or maybe she should have her own mini adventure. An argument about the kids always comes up. Every damn time. So don't say I'm making this up.

Sue does not appear often alone as the others that's a simple fact that can easily be proven. Anytime she does guest appear it is usually with other FF members, something that the other three don't have the restriction of. You just have to look at the number of appearances and Sue has the least.

The bold is horrible idea as it's what Sue should be getting away from. She is more than Reed's baby machine, she should be a fully rounded character that's a person. With her own wants and goals outside of Reed and the kids. The others get to have that and so should she.

More like jeers. She choses to be attached to Reed at the hip because, now here is the bombshell... get ready for it.... she LOVES him, they are MARRIED, and she loves her FAMILY.

I know, in the 2010's it is hard to swallow that.... but there it is in over 700 issues with Susan Storm as a character, not to mention a few million years of human nature...

1 a : the basic unit in society traditionally consisting of two parents rearing their children; also : any of various social units differing from but regarded as equivalent to the traditional family

    a single-parent family

b : spouse and children

    want to spend more time with my family

2 : a group of individuals living under one roof and usually under one head : household

Her character is based on the 60s. And quite frankly, Invisible Girl was a terribly written character. She was the weak link of the team in more ways than one and just filled the role of "girl". Loving someone doesn't mean that you have nothing for yourself. Her entire wants and desires should not be about Reed, that's pathetic. What you posted is an ancient and myopic view of what a wife should be, Sue should have wants and desires outside of the family. It's not asking for a lot when the other members get to have that, even the damn kids.

She should have more to her than that.

[Crimz]

I will say that she was NOT in the original Secret Wars... but I can't remember if that was because she was taking care of baby franklin... or if she was still pregnant... It's a bit blurry for me. But that would be one instance of family keeping her out of the adventures...

But I agree. She isn't banned from guest starring in other books because she's raising the kids. That's just irrelevant. She can do whatever she want and Johnny and Ben are perfectly fine babysitters... which would (and I think has) led to wacky adventures.

The real reason that Sue doesn't get much exposure... is that she's the least interesting member of FF. She's the not the firey hot head... the monster with the heart of gold... those guys show up everywhere and it's awesome. Reed is the biggest brain around and guest stars everytime anyone needs a bigger brain to help them with some science stuff... but Sue? They have REALLY struggled to give her much identity that wasn't 'girlfriend, hostage, wife, mother' and every time they DO try to make her more powerful or point out that she is NOT the hostage or just the 'girlfriend'... they don't really give her anything else to replace it with. What reason would Spider-man or Captain America seek out Sue Storm for help in an adventure? Her best story hook is when they call for reed and she answers the phone...

Sue is the one character that they REALLY need to work the most... then maybe we WILL see her doing her own thing every once in a while and cross paths with Spider-man or X-Men or Captain America books.

My point is that NONE of that makes her interesting OUTSIDE of the FF. The conversation was about her having outside adventures and crossovers in other books...and if your main thing is holding a team together... then what are you WITHOUT that team?

Pretty much my opinion with most of the X-Men. Being part of the team is so ingrained in them that they just don't work solo.

The bolded is my point. They have given Sue nothing outside of being the wife and mother. The others have personalities and aspirations outside of the family. Sue is anchored to the family to the point where she doesn't work outside of it. And with Franklin and Val being old enough to not need her 24/7 she has no purpose. And that's where the kid excuse comes into play.

Why isn't Sue teaming up with so and so? She has to look after the kids.

Why doesn't Sue have her own career? Then who will look after the kids? They're are her job

Why doesn't she have a solo/mini like the others have got? She can't have a solo adventure otherwise she'd be abandoning her kids.

Starting to see the pattern? None of these things have ever restricted Reed like it does Sue. He could go with his Illuminati friends and blow up planets with no one commenting on why he isn't at home with the kids while Sue could not do the same.
Instead of developing her as a character writers just do the lazy and give her some feat of power. She has not developed since the Byrne run 30 years ago, she has stopped growing as a character and that's a failure.

Giving her feats of power can not replace actual development and with the kids being older now is the perfect time to rework Sue. It's time to make her an interesting character that can work outside of the team with her own wants and desires outside of the family. Her life no longer being revolved around men and no longer having nothing for herself. I hope that Slott is the writer capable of doing this.

It's time that Sue completely got out of the 60s.

[Prof. Warren]

The bolded is my point. They have given Sue nothing outside of being the wife and mother. The others have personalities and aspirations outside of the family. Sue is anchored to the family to the point where she doesn't work outside of it. And with Franklin and Val being old enough to not need her 24/7 she has no purpose. And that's where the kid excuse comes into play.

Why isn't Sue teaming up with so and so? She has to look after the kids.

Why doesn't Sue have her own career? Then who will look after the kids? They're are her job

Why doesn't she have a solo/mini like the others have got? She can't have a solo adventure otherwise she'd be abandoning her kids.

Starting to see the pattern? None of these things have ever restricted Reed like it does Sue. He could go with his Illuminati friends and blow up planets with no one commenting on why he isn't at home with the kids while Sue could not do the same.
Instead of developing her as a character writers just do the lazy and give her some feat of power. She has not developed since the Byrne run 30 years ago, she has stopped growing as a character and that's a failure.

Giving her feats of power can not replace actual development and with the kids being older now is the perfect time to rework Sue. It's time to make her an interesting character that can work outside of the team with her own wants and desires outside of the family. Her life no longer being revolved around men and no longer having nothing for herself. I hope that Slott is the writer capable of doing this.

It's time that Sue completely got out of the 60s.

Yes, absolutely.

It's definitely time for Sue to become more fully developed. Here's hoping Slott has significant plans for her.

As for the kids getting older, it's about time. Other kids in the MU have aged up, at least by some measure, while Franklin and Valeria have remained stuck in childhood. Bringing them into adolescence is a long overdue move.

[Oberon]

I find your comments alternatingly fascinating, true and scornful. A previous comment seemed that you all but called her out as a disaster, putting her selfish needs first, Namor, etc. Now you say she is the best developed, and the core, etc. etc.

I personally find all these differing thoughts to be my own, but maybe I'm not ready to shout it out. BTW, I've read the Four since the late '60s on a very regular basis. Sue has always been my favorite character, but really, you can't have one without any of the others, right?

[Oberon]

Sue's agency is mediated through a role that defines her more as a mother with super powers than a super hero who is a mom. Sorta like that? Her lens or filter doesn't establish her personhood on her own terms (yeah, she says mothering is the most important for her, but we don't believe that right?) but only in relationship to her children and co-parent - but on their terms more likely.

So, yes, Sue's template is '60s era woman. Though that changed a bit - as someone said, it was set by 1970, more or less. Many times we've seen great stories with Sue, her power sets, her courage, determination, etc - but all of it comes with her doing service for others first and foremost.

Every time her force field was extremely tested; the Nuke in / around # 40, Doom's bomb in the latter # 70s, when the space ship breached and she saved everyone (more than one occurrence) it was to help others even if also her self.

[mrbrklyn]

You can miss me with those antiquated gender roles.

Being a mother isn't an antique and your just perusing for a cause to argue but your barking like a hound dog because Susan was never pigeonholed to those roles anyway.

I'm sorry that wholesome family life hasn't been replaced by a story of heartbreak, divorce, and abandoned children. I know you would like that better, but the Fantastic Four is Fantastic and they can have family without subjugating Susan Richards to either Victorian morals or the life of Diana Christensen.

~~cia

[mrbrklyn]

I've mentioned this many times in the past (and probably in this very thread) that because of the long history of the FF, we have Sue who was created in the early 1960s with most of her personality set by 1970 and now she is presented as a well rounded 21st century woman. Compared with the boys, who basically just quit smoking and stopped wearing hats, Sue needed to develop a LOT more to adjust to her growing role within the team and American society itself. The woman who went up in the rocket needs to be a full-grown woman dealing with 21st century America and not just "the girl" with a Jackie Kennedy hairdo.

The old characterization often doesn't fit anymore.

Susan Storm in the 1960's went up in a rocket which was extrodinary in the first place. The weird thing is that kids think they discovered the liberalization of women in the world, which in truth, that has been a feature of Western Civilization nearly from the beginning, and in American Culture also nearly from the start, although it really took off in the 1920's with the flapper girls.

One has to be a fanatic, and not so fantastic, not to understand that.

[mrbrklyn]

I am not conjuring up anything.

What else can one say to this other than... well, yes you are. Susan Richards has never been hampered or restricted by her being a mother and wife.

[mrbrklyn]

The bolded is my point. They have given Sue nothing outside of being the wife and mother

I understand you point and it is not true. You must be confused with Sue Richards from another universe.

[mrbrklyn]

Yes, absolutely.

It's definitely time for Sue to become more fully developed.

Susan Richards is a fully developed character that has been the center of multiple key storylines. In fact, she is the most fully developed character in the Marvel Universe, with a close second being Peter Parker. She is a role model for all the other female characters in the Marvel Universe.

[markhyperion]

Wow. Sue referencing Namor and her fanfic is hugely meta in a way I'm not sure I like. It wasn't intended in this way, but to me it means Sue (like Deadpool) knows she isn't real. Its just odd.

Also, she probably shouldn't Google herself and any one else at all, as there are a lot of Sue shippers out there. She'd get scared. lol

[Prof. Warren]

Susan Richards is a fully developed character that has been the center of multiple key storylines. In fact, she is the most fully developed character in the Marvel Universe, with a close second being Peter Parker. She is a role model for all the other female characters in the Marvel Universe.

A role model, yes. But given her stature in the MU, she really deserves to be given more to do outside the family unit.

Also, the "most fully developed character in the MU" seems a bit hyperbolic, given the amount of characters in the MU - many of which could be argued to be just as "fully developed" as Sue, if not more.