Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[MarquisAsh]

I’ve started reading the fantastic four like 6 months ago, and I think I agree and disagree. I agree Susan should be appearing in more books and female team up since she is the FIRST LADY of Marvel. But I do see a difference in her personality and the way she is treated in the comic. I think she is really respected by everyone in the marvel universe. She’s a super hero and a full time mom like these real housewives. Maybe she will do more this time? Since these real housewives are giving more of a modern take?

[mrbrklyn]

I find your comments alternatingly fascinating, true and scornful. A previous comment seemed that you all but called her out as a disaster, putting her selfish needs first, Namor, etc. Now you say she is the best developed, and the core, etc. etc.

I personally find all these differing thoughts to be my own, but maybe I'm not ready to shout it out. BTW, I've read the Four since the late '60s on a very regular basis. Sue has always been my favorite character, but really, you can't have one without any of the others, right?

She can be both. In fact, the character development almost requires that she is both. No women is perfect and most live there lives in the crucible of family conflict (not that men don't). The problem here is that some individuals have limited their reasoning to believe that domestic development is less important than external development. The family sucks. Child rearing sucks. Motherhood sucks. Only careers matter... These are a loud boisterous few and they look at the character of Susan Richards and say, "She has been enslaved by 1960's morals" and that is utter BS. Aside from being clueless about the 1960's and post-industrial America, Susan Richards, as a fact, never fit that mold anyway and from the very start was a character that developed her own strong sense of person and achievement.

Susan Richards is a warm, interesting and rational women, and she would never dispense with her family because she knows that domestic development is more important than conquering Doom. And she has learned that by making mistakes along the way.

Anyone who has worked for a living and raised a family knows that your family is all that matters in the end, and careers are just tools to help one raise a family to be strong. And the FF is a very strong family. The FF love each other more than they hate Doom. Doom, OTOH, hates the FF more than he loves himself.

See... Heros and Villians..

It is really quite simple.

Ro Laren: Why is it that every time I tell you something you tell me it is the exact opposite:
Guinen: Because you are one of those people who's got your poles reversed.

[Crimz]

What else can one say to this other than... well, yes you are. Susan Richards has never been hampered or restricted by her being a mother and wife.

I understand you point and it is not true. You must be confused with Sue Richards from another universe.

Susan Richards is a fully developed character that has been the center of multiple key storylines. In fact, she is the most fully developed character in the Marvel Universe, with a close second being Peter Parker. She is a role model for all the other female characters in the Marvel Universe.

You have got to be kidding me.

Disprove what I've said. I'll wait...

Sue is not even the most developed on her team yet alone the MU lol.

Describe Sue as a character and the only things that come up are mother and sometimes badass. That's it.

I believe that you are the one that must be confused. You seem to be talking about several different characters. One moment you talk about her only needing to be a wife and mother, the next you say she is the most developed in the entire MU.

[Crimz]

She can be both. In fact, the character development almost requires that she is both. No women is perfect and most live there lives in the crucible of family conflict (not that men don't). The problem here is that some individuals have limited their reasoning to believe that domestic development is less important than external development. The family sucks. Child rearing sucks. Motherhood sucks. Only careers matter... These are a loud boisterous few and they look at the character of Susan Richards and say, "She has been enslaved by 1960's morals" and that is utter BS. Aside from being clueless about the 1960's and post-industrial America, Susan Richards, as a fact, never fit that mold anyway and from the very start was a character that developed her own strong sense of person and achievement.

Susan Richards is a warm, interesting and rational women, and she would never dispense with her family because she knows that domestic development is more important than conquering Doom. And she has learned that by making mistakes along the way.

Anyone who has worked for a living and raised a family knows that your family is all that matters in the end, and careers are just tools to help one raise a family to be strong. And the FF is a very strong family. The FF love each other more than they hate Doom. Doom, OTOH, hates the FF more than he loves himself.

See... Heros and Villians..

It is really quite simple.

Where are you getting this from? No one said that and no one has asked for her to get rid of her family.

[theoneandonly]

looks like everyone wants their own ideas about development to come to fruition for the characters to be truly developed. I can't say that Ben and human torch are any more developed than sue as they also haven't have any significant lives apart from FF. Ben has allowed his license as a pilot to lapse time and again before renewing it and apart from poker games doesn't seem to be having much of a impact on anything although he certainly has had greater exposure than sue. similarly the human torch also hasn't set the world on fire lately apart from a forgettable role in inhumans which led to zilch apart from being medusas boy toy who she got bored off and pottering with the uncanny avengers and throwing tantrums at Baxter building whenever peter does something with the building although he did gave him some good advice and a helping hand in spectacular but either way I don't recall any significant development occurring in his or Ben's character arc.though of course I may be missing something.

[mrbrklyn]

A role model, yes. But given her stature in the MU, she really deserves to be given more to do outside the family unit.

In order to punish her?

Ro Laren: Why is it that every time I tell you something you tell me it is the exact opposite:
Guinen: Because you are one of those people who's got your poles reversed.

[mrbrklyn]

You have got to be kidding me.

I would never kid with young people such as yourself about comics.

[mrbrklyn]

Where are you getting this from?

I have read and owned every FF since the first issue, so my material comes from Lee, KIrby, Wolfman, Perez, Byrne, Simonson et al.

For the sources you use, I can not speak.

[mrbrklyn]

I believe that you are the one that must be confused. You seem to be talking about several different characters. One moment you talk about her only needing to be a wife and mother, the next you say she is the most developed in the entire MU.

Mothers and Wives are fully developed characters... even leader and trend setters. Did you miss that?

Maybe women that are not wives and mothers are a little less so.


This is not how one should feel about Motherhood or Family

[Crimz]

I have read and owned every FF since the first issue, so my material comes from Lee, KIrby, Wolfman, Perez, Byrne, Simonson et al.

For the sources you use, I can not speak.

You must only use them as decoration seeing as you have still failed to disprove my point.

Mothers and Wives are fully developed characters... even leader and trend setters. Did you miss that?

Maybe women that are not wives and mothers are a little less so.


This is not how one should feel about Motherhood or Family

Seems I have to repeat myself....


No one said that there is anything wrong with her being a wife and mother.

Where are you getting this from?

[mrbrklyn]

No one said that there is anything wrong with her being a wife and mother.
Where are you getting this from?

Actually, you have said that in several threads and more than once in this one.

One moment you talk about her only needing to be a wife and mother, the next you say she is the most developed in the entire MU

.

And there you said it again.

She is both a wife and mother and yes, the most developed character in the Marvel Universe... I said that already.

[mrbrklyn]

[Crimz]

Actually, you have said that in several threads and more than once in this one.

.

And there you said it again.

She is both a wife and mother and yes, the most developed character in the Marvel Universe... I said that already.

Are you having a reading issue? Where in that sentence do I say that her being a wife and mother is bad?

I said that there should be more to the character than that. If you are going to quote me at least get it right.

You have also not proved how she is "the most developed charcter in the MU" which is quite frankly, a ridiculous statement.

[JackDaw]

looks like everyone wants their own ideas about development to come to fruition for the characters to be truly developed. I can't say that Ben and human torch are any more developed than sue as they also haven't have any significant lives apart from FF. Ben has allowed his license as a pilot to lapse time and again before renewing it and apart from poker games doesn't seem to be having much of a impact on anything although he certainly has had greater exposure than sue. similarly the human torch also hasn't set the world on fire lately apart from a forgettable role in inhumans which led to zilch apart from being medusas boy toy who she got bored off and pottering with the uncanny avengers and throwing tantrums at Baxter building whenever peter does something with the building although he did gave him some good advice and a helping hand in spectacular but either way I don't recall any significant development occurring in his or Ben's character arc.though of course I may be missing something.

I agree with that.

In some ways, I can’t logically criticise overall balance of Fantastic Four...because it worked for me, in sense it’s given me immense reading pleasure.

But part of me thinks that making Reed such a towering all round genius, has resulted in other characters almost seem like “makeweights”...It almost feels like Ben, Johnny and Sue aren’t there because their powers are that special, and certainly not because they have essential skills...but because Ben is Reed’s best friend, Sue is Reed’s wife, and Johnny is Sue’s brother.

For me..it’s not about whether Sue (or Ben and Johhny) feature in solo adventures or not...it’s about demonstrating that they are just as important in team adventures and problem solving as Reed.

[theoneandonly]

I agree with that.

In some ways, I can’t logically criticise overall balance of Fantastic Four...because it worked for me, in sense it’s given me immense reading pleasure.

But part of me thinks that making Reed such a towering all round genius, has resulted in other characters almost seem like “makeweights”...It almost feels like Ben, Johnny and Sue aren’t there because their powers are that special, and certainly not because they have essential skills...but because Ben is Reed’s best friend, Sue is Reed’s wife, and Johnny is Sue’s brother.

For me..it’s not about whether Sue (or Ben and Johhny) feature in solo adventures or not...it’s about demonstrating that they are just as important in team adventures and problem solving as Reed.

exactly the way Reed has dominated the FF team often doesn't leave room for fulfilling story telling plots for the rest of them. many times the intense rivalry and dynamic of doom and Reed takeover all the aspects of the FF book where the others seem to be just there for the ride.