Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[CaptCleghorn]

exactly the way Reed has dominated the FF team often doesn't leave room for fulfilling story telling plots for the rest of them. many times the intense rivalry and dynamic of doom and Reed takeover all the aspects of the FF book where the others seem to be just there for the ride.

I'm going to go in on my examination of who the FF actually were based on. When the FF was published back in 1961, DC had Rip Hunter, Cave Carson, and the Sea Devils led by Dane Dorrance. All four teams consisted of a scientist, his tough brawny buddy, the scientist's GF, and a pesky kid (who was the GF's brother in Rip Huner and Sea Devils). Sound familiar?

Sea Devils I'm not as familiar with, but no one from Rip Hunter's original crew made it onto Legends of Tomorrow. The formula was geared towards a Reed focus and for a lot of what the FF was all about, Reed is obvious the lynchpin/keystone for the scientific part as well as being the husband/dad. To Marvel's credit, they did expand the roles of Ben and Johnny and eventually Sue.

[mrbrklyn]

[mrbrklyn]

[mrbrklyn]

Sue Richards, the hopeless homebody of Marvel ...

[mrbrklyn]

[Crimz]

Those panels are nice, but we are talking about development. Where is the growth in that story? How has she changed and developed from the beginning of that to the end?

In that story she was queen for like a day and then later the civilization crumbled anyway. It's a great moment for her, but the experience didn't change or develop her. She was the same at end of it all as she was in the beginning.
An example of development, using Hickman's run, is Reed's situation. He learned that he needs to be there for his family instead of abandoning them for science like the council of Reeds did. He is a different person at the end of Hickman's run than he was in the beginning. He no longer put science first and he promised to no longer keep things from his family. That is development. During Sue's brief time of being queen she didn't grow or develop, she held the same views and beliefs as she did before and acted the same. It was more of the badass feats that she gets in the place of actual character development.

I stand by my point that the last time Sue got good development was during Byrne's run 30 years ago.

[Oberon]

Kudos/Points for the Next Gen reference! Yes, I like your take. It is the same take many of us have but rather refreshing in your earnestness and confidence.

thanks!

[Oberon]

Where is this from? I want to say its from Hickman's FF run, but I don't remember Sue and Andromeda drawing closer (and I think that is not a bad idea btw)

[Oberon]

It is Hickman's run. Not sure why I forgot about Andromeda.

[Oberon]

Oh Yes. This has to be one of my favorite Sue scenes, at least in the top 20, lol. As much as I like the Namor / Sue flirtation on certain levels, there is nothing more satisfying than Sue prove her strength to him.

[Oberon]

I guess I see what you're saying. But Sue's development in this scenario is based on the Old Atlanteans acknowledging it. Not Reed, Johnny or Ben. Not Namor. Others who saw and interacted with it.

Second, who else in Sue's position ('60s created female; Wasp, Jean Grey, Wanda, etc.) has also been a Queen, if only for a day.

Sue's experiences may not be fully fleshed out - this isn't Shakespeare, Hemmingway or Patterson - so we have to deal with the reality that it is a comic book. We're not going to see those levels of growth in the same way. Just my thoughts. There still is nothing like Sue in comics - with the exception of who I feel is the most well conceived female character; DC's Batwoman, Kate Kane.

[mrbrklyn]

Oh Yes. This has to be one of my favorite Sue scenes, at least in the top 20, lol. As much as I like the Namor / Sue flirtation on certain levels, there is nothing more satisfying than Sue prove her strength to him.

I think the best part of it is the depth and subtlety of the emotions that Ms Richards shows through a complex storyline which requires her to demonstrate multiple rolls... investigative hero, diplomat, negotiator, worshiped beauty queen, ruler, all played out gracefully as only Susan Richards could. The Invisible Girl gives a tour deforce that no other character that I know of in literature can portray in that particular story arch and it is very underrated in the analogues of comic history. And this is the storyline where Johnny Storm meets his heroic death in the Negative Zone. The follow up story with Franklin and Spider-man made me cry. Now that was real drama and emotion... not the trite stuff that was given to us in the new FF#1 from last month.

[CaptCleghorn]

I guess I see what you're saying. But Sue's development in this scenario is based on the Old Atlanteans acknowledging it. Not Reed, Johnny or Ben. Not Namor. Others who saw and interacted with it.

Second, who else in Sue's position ('60s created female; Wasp, Jean Grey, Wanda, etc.) has also been a Queen, if only for a day.

Sue's experiences may not be fully fleshed out - this isn't Shakespeare, Hemmingway or Patterson - so we have to deal with the reality that it is a comic book. We're not going to see those levels of growth in the same way. Just my thoughts. There still is nothing like Sue in comics - with the exception of who I feel is the most well conceived female character; DC's Batwoman, Kate Kane.

A primary point of the people wanting a more developed Sue is that unlike Reed, Ben, and Johnny, she has very little non-FF exposure. That's a definite quantitative poin that can't be argued against. Looking at the first couple of hundred FF covers Sue is seen mostly doing nothing, in the background, or looking fearful with her hand in front of her face. I can count the number of cover power uses for Sue in those 200 issues on one (maybe two) hands.

Now, we're all going to have differing opinions on how developed Sue is or should be. Have two extreme cases arguing about it does none of us any good. Spend enough time on the FF threads and you'll get to know who the more frequent posters are. Trust me, I've disagreed with ALL of them at times on different topics. So what? You like A; I like B. We all like FF, so we have that.

At some point in time, we all realize that there are posters who's minds we are not going to change and because it's how they feel about a funny book and its characters, that's OK.

[JackDaw]

I guess I see what you're saying. But Sue's development in this scenario is based on the Old Atlanteans acknowledging it. Not Reed, Johnny or Ben. Not Namor. Others who saw and interacted with it.

Second, who else in Sue's position ('60s created female; Wasp, Jean Grey, Wanda, etc.) has also been a Queen, if only for a day.

Sue's experiences may not be fully fleshed out - this isn't Shakespeare, Hemmingway or Patterson - so we have to deal with the reality that it is a comic book. We're not going to see those levels of growth in the same way. Just my thoughts. There still is nothing like Sue in comics - with the exception of who I feel is the most well conceived female character; DC's Batwoman, Kate Kane.

I think in DC Kate Spencer and Shayera Thal are two other terrifically well conceived female DC leads.

Turning to Sue, I think one reason why her development stalled after John Bryne run was down to Marvel’s refusal to let Franklin and Val age past low teens.

Imagine both had flown the nest..that it would be natural for Sue to radically change her lifestyle, indeed almost perverse not to show substantial change.

Would she become a mature student? Become an even more reckless adventuter? Mentor some of the Future Foundation kids. Or a combination of all three, and much more?

[CaptCleghorn]

I think the best part of it is the depth and subtlety of the emotions that Ms Richards shows through a complex storyline which requires her to demonstrate multiple rolls... investigative hero, diplomat, negotiator, worshiped beauty queen, ruler, all played out gracefully as only Susan Richards could. The Invisible Girl gives a tour deforce that no other character that I know of in literature can portray in that particular story arch and it is very underrated in the analogues of comic history. And this is the storyline where Johnny Storm meets his heroic death in the Negative Zone. The follow up story with Franklin and Spider-man made me cry. Now that was real drama and emotion... not the trite stuff that was given to us in the new FF#1 from last month.

I'm going to disagree strongly here. This brilliant panel portrays a moment of a close friend, a niece and nephew seeing the death of Johnny. This was FF at its finest and I supported this scene when it was mentioned that we should have seen Johnny throwing fireballs and going nova. Nope. This is FF.

Fantastic Four 646 was also FF. The moment shown getting home through song wasn't as dramatic by a longshot. A team that had ALWAYS found a way needed to find another way and the joking about Sue's voice was family drama. No one dares to tell Mom she can't hold a tune. Sure, Johnny overreacted, but comparing it to one of the greatest panels in FF history like this one makes most everything else pale.