Why has WB struggled with Superman on the big screen?

[mrbrklyn]

Why have they struggled? Because so many people overthink and underestimate the character! .

that is an essentail truth.

[Jokerz79]

Fans should never decided the direction of a character because we all want different things. Being Superman is a defining moment in Cavill's life what I mean him like all Superman actors will have this listed as one of his life accomplishments when his obituary is printed hate to be morbid but just pointing out a fact. When something impacts your life like that of course you are going to want some input to get it right.

[Lokimaru]

This is why I still hope that Henry can play Superman again. He understands Superman, he knows what Superman stands for, he acts like Superman in real life. In anyone is worthy to be the big screen's Superman, it's him.



Thor is a warrior by nature, Hulk wants to be left alone and Captain America can be too political at times. Superman has to transcend warrior culture, uncontrolled rage and sociopolitical discussions to become a hero for the entire world. He isn't the prince of an ancient culture or a soldier out of time, he is simply a man wants to do the right thing. Warner can make a good movie about that. Superman has a complex and nuanced nature that is tricky to pull off, but not impossible. Just look at the DCAU, All-Star Superman, Geoff Johns' stories or Rebirth. I'm even enjoying what Bendis is doing right now in the comic books. Superman is my favorite literary character and I can hope he can fly in the big screen again.

Calling him just a simple man leaves out the fact that he's an Alien which is Why he had powers in the first place. His parents sent his to earth not for our sake but for HIS. To give him his "best chance" as Once is fond of saying. is just a simple man doing what he can to help. Guy is even a substitute schools teacher. I can see why DC felt so threatened. Even has a better theme song. One could say DC and WB should take more inspiration from that but how?. There is one thing that Billy Batson and Ralph Hinkley have that Superman can never have and that is that they are Human whilst he only has pretense.

[JAK]

There is one thing that Billy Batson and Ralph Hinkley have that Superman can never have and that is that they are Human whilst he only has pretense.

I'm not aiming this at you at all, but I've always found that idea kinda... crap. Superman has powers/etc that most people don't have, but humanity isn't just measured by lack of advantage. It's also not the be-all-end all, otherwise actual detective stories would be outselling everything else (and not Batman - no amount of training will make you what he's become, not even close). There's a reason Bruce says that, by compassion, "Clark is the most human of us all". Compassion has even been called "humanity".

He was raised human (in most versions), with the inner humanity to not sit by when he sees ill done in front of him (as in, he doesn't necessarily need a tragedy to bring it out of him). He may be Kryptonian, but he's not putting on a pretense. Technical aspects aside, that's pretty human to me.

[Minerboh]

Because they are morons.

[bat39]

I'm not aiming this at you at all, but I've always found that idea kinda... crap. Superman has powers/etc that most people don't have, but humanity isn't just measured by lack of advantage. It's also not the be-all-end all, otherwise actual detective stories would be outselling everything else (and not Batman - no amount of training will make you what he's become, not even close). There's a reason Bruce says that, by compassion, "Clark is the most human of us all". Compassion has even been called "humanity".

He was raised human (in most versions), with the inner humanity to not sit by when he sees ill done in front of him (as in, he doesn't necessarily need a tragedy to bring it out of him). He may be Kryptonian, but he's not putting on a pretense. Technical aspects aside, that's pretty human to me.

Totally agree.

Superman is most definitely a character defined by his humanity, and not his 'alienness'.

Siegal and Shuster only created the Krypton backstory as a rationale to explain his powers. They never intended for him to be an 'alien character'. He considered himself to be human, and acted like a human - just a human who happened to have superhuman abilities and wanted to use them to make a difference. Hell, back in the Golden Age, Superman didn't even know about his alien heritage! Krypton wasn't something that even came up, except for the occasional origin recap.

Its only in the Silver Age that the franchise became a bit more sci-fi focused and delved more into Krypton and Superman's alien heritage. So prominent did Krypton become in the Superman books that by the Bronze Age, when writers started delving into Superman's character and psyche, they created this notion that Superman views himself first and foremost as an alien being living on Earth, and felt distant from human beings. In fact, I remember reading a story from this era, collected in the Jose Luis Garcia Lopez hardcover, in which Superman is tricked into believing that his Kryptonian origin is fake and that he's in fact human. He immediately starts to value his life as Clark Kent and his connections to other human beings more, which implies that he couldn't do so when he believed he was an alien. IMO, that is not at all how Superman should be portrayed!

That is why the Kents are so important, as is Clark eventually settling down with Lois and starting a family. Clark is, for all intents and purposes, a human being. He may have alien heritage and alien biology, his powers may give him a perspective that humans lack and experiences that most humans will never have (though that applies to most superheroes). But he was raised as a human being, spent most of his childhood and adolescence believing that he was human (in most continuities, including the current one), spends at least half his day leading a normal human life with a job, friends, wife and now kid, and spends most of his time dealing with the concerns of human beings at various levels.

Its okay for Superman to bond with the likes of the Martian Manhunter, or Hawkman and Hawkgirl, over being aliens who have adopted earth as their home. But his story is VERY different from that of theirs. He isn't an alien who came to earth and assumed a human identity to blend in. He's an alien who was raised as human and only discovered his alien heritage later in life. Its a distinction writers would do well to remember.

[The World]

I'm not aiming this at you at all, but I've always found that idea kinda... crap. Superman has powers/etc that most people don't have, but humanity isn't just measured by lack of advantage. It's also not the be-all-end all, otherwise actual detective stories would be outselling everything else (and not Batman - no amount of training will make you what he's become, not even close). There's a reason Bruce says that, by compassion, "Clark is the most human of us all". Compassion has even been called "humanity".

He was raised human (in most versions), with the inner humanity to not sit by when he sees ill done in front of him (as in, he doesn't necessarily need a tragedy to bring it out of him). He may be Kryptonian, but he's not putting on a pretense. Technical aspects aside, that's pretty human to me.

Compassion isn't a trait exclusive to humans in the DCU. Plenty of aliens express most or all of the characteristics that define the human race so Superman's bid for humanity really has no inherit weight or value. Frankly this groveling the Superman franchise has been put through for the last quarter century with Superman trying to appeal to people that don't like the character because he's an alien has only demeaned the character. It produces things like BvS where Superman is basically flogged to prove something to the general audience.

[astro@work]

That is why the Kents are so important, as is Clark eventually settling down with Lois and starting a family. Clark is, for all intents and purposes, a human being. He may have alien heritage and alien biology, his powers may give him a perspective that humans lack and experiences that most humans will never have (though that applies to most superheroes). But he was raised as a human being, spent most of his childhood and adolescence believing that he was human (in most continuities, including the current one), spends at least half his day leading a normal human life with a job, friends, wife and now kid, and spends most of his time dealing with the concerns of human beings at various levels.

Its okay for Superman to bond with the likes of the Martian Manhunter, or Hawkman and Hawkgirl, over being aliens who have adopted earth as their home. But his story is VERY different from that of theirs. He isn't an alien who came to earth and assumed a human identity to blend in. He's an alien who was raised as human and only discovered his alien heritage later in life. Its a distinction writers would do well to remember.

900% this. Clark's greatest charm has always been that despite being born an alien, he's as human as any of us. He was raised believing he was an earthling (until his powers manifested) and has a very human Midwestern sensibility and compassion for his fellow man. The Kents and later his wife and son are critical elements in grounding him in humanity. This is why some of the later interpretations that focused too much on the alien angle rang hollow for me.

[HeroVladimir93]

900% this. Clark's greatest charm has always been that despite being born an alien, he's as human as any of us. He was raised believing he was an earthling (until his powers manifested) and has a very human Midwestern sensibility and compassion for his fellow man. The Kents and later his wife and son are critical elements in grounding him in humanity. This is why some of the later interpretations that focused too much on the alien angle rang hollow for me.

Yes, exactly! In Justice League, Batman said that Superman was always more human than him. That's something I'd like the DCEU movies to explore while moving forward.

[marhawkman]

Yes, exactly! In Justice League, Batman said that Superman was always more human than him. That's something I'd like the DCEU movies to explore while moving forward.

On some occasions, Batman has actually admitted to others that he's pretty much insane. Superman is not.

[The World]

Totally agree.

Superman is most definitely a character defined by his humanity, and not his 'alienness'.

Siegal and Shuster only created the Krypton backstory as a rationale to explain his powers. They never intended for him to be an 'alien character'. He considered himself to be human, and acted like a human - just a human who happened to have superhuman abilities and wanted to use them to make a difference. Hell, back in the Golden Age, Superman didn't even know about his alien heritage! Krypton wasn't something that even came up, except for the occasional origin recap.

Its only in the Silver Age that the franchise became a bit more sci-fi focused and delved more into Krypton and Superman's alien heritage. So prominent did Krypton become in the Superman books that by the Bronze Age, when writers started delving into Superman's character and psyche, they created this notion that Superman views himself first and foremost as an alien being living on Earth, and felt distant from human beings. In fact, I remember reading a story from this era, collected in the Jose Luis Garcia Lopez hardcover, in which Superman is tricked into believing that his Kryptonian origin is fake and that he's in fact human. He immediately starts to value his life as Clark Kent and his connections to other human beings more, which implies that he couldn't do so when he believed he was an alien. IMO, that is not at all how Superman should be portrayed!

That is why the Kents are so important, as is Clark eventually settling down with Lois and starting a family. Clark is, for all intents and purposes, a human being. He may have alien heritage and alien biology, his powers may give him a perspective that humans lack and experiences that most humans will never have (though that applies to most superheroes). But he was raised as a human being, spent most of his childhood and adolescence believing that he was human (in most continuities, including the current one), spends at least half his day leading a normal human life with a job, friends, wife and now kid, and spends most of his time dealing with the concerns of human beings at various levels.

Its okay for Superman to bond with the likes of the Martian Manhunter, or Hawkman and Hawkgirl, over being aliens who have adopted earth as their home. But his story is VERY different from that of theirs. He isn't an alien who came to earth and assumed a human identity to blend in. He's an alien who was raised as human and only discovered his alien heritage later in life. Its a distinction writers would do well to remember.

That Gerry Conway/JGL story shows how bizarre Superman looks when he's trying to fit in rather than just being himself. Most of the stuff he does in that story are things John Byrne went on to try earnestly in the reboot. The difference is that the bronze age story acknowledges how silly Superman looks trying to pose himself as some kind of football playing casanova that every guy wants to be, where as the Post-Crisis take on Superman legitimately thinks thats cool and enhances the character. Feeling out of place or awkward around other people are perfectly normal things that people feel and that's without having to deal with being a survivor of a dead race or having a secondary life they can't tell anyone about. Humanity is not just the high points of the human race rather it is it's uniqueness amongst all the other animals on the planet and it's range of expression that makes it different.

When action comics launched way back in the day Superman headlined that book with many other characters and yet he Supes is the only one to outlive them all. The difference between them was that Superman was SUPERhuman and along with his regular street level antics also fought weird scific threats, Mxy, Luthor, Ultrahumanite, etc. Pep Morgan, Hop Harrington, and the rest were just regular people that led action packed but regular lives. Superman is weird and different and we shouldn't be watering himself down to appeal to others.

Also the concept of Superboy and the super childhood was supported by Siegel IIRC. I remember seeing pictures of early concepts for Superman as a young boy that did in fact show him homesick for Krypton, so it really isn't just some idea some wacky silver age guys idea it's a part of the characters DNA. Even still by the mid to late 40's Superman had a full blown Superboy childhood given that the Superboy comic started in like '47 and he had been appearing in other comics before that. Beyond that Siegel second run did show him as a person that had a certain amount of longing for his birth planet while still loving Earth. Stuff like that makes the character more 3 dimensional.

If being normal was really what made the character tick we would have dumped the Superman bit by now and be reading about Clark Kent Ace Report not SUPERMAN ACTION ACE.

[The World]

Yes, exactly! In Justice League, Batman said that Superman was always more human than him. That's something I'd like the DCEU movies to explore while moving forward.

900% this. Clark's greatest charm has always been that despite being born an alien, he's as human as any of us. He was raised believing he was an earthling (until his powers manifested) and has a very human Midwestern sensibility and compassion for his fellow man. The Kents and later his wife and son are critical elements in grounding him in humanity. This is why some of the later interpretations that focused too much on the alien angle rang hollow for me.

The Lois grounds him stuff is post-crisis talk through and through and frankly validates concepts like Injustice Superman. That isn't Superman.

[Osiris-Rex]

900% this. Clark's greatest charm has always been that despite being born an alien, he's as human as any of us. He was raised believing he was an earthling (until his powers manifested) and has a very human Midwestern sensibility and compassion for his fellow man. The Kents and later his wife and son are critical elements in grounding him in humanity. This is why some of the later interpretations that focused too much on the alien angle rang hollow for me.

They even used the idea that Clark was raised as a human to explain why Superman was being mind controlled by Myriad while it didn't affect Supergirl in the season 1 finale of the Supergirl TV series.
His brain had become too human, while Kara was raised as a Kryptonian and had a more Kryptonian brain.
(As a way to explain why Superman wasn't there to help out because CBS didn't have the rights to use Superman)

[Comic-Reader Lad]

I think that Hollywood in general is a very cynical place, and they simply don't know how to do "uplifting" without apology or undercutting it with irony and sarcasm. I'll get a little political here and say that it's a leftist thing. They view honesty and niceness as being corny and outdated and they simply don't know how to write a character like that. If they gave it a real try, it would still feel off because they would lean so far into it that it would come across as overly and mawkishly earnest -- the big blue boyscout syndrome that Superman really needs to escape from.

Superman needs to be good, honest, and approachable, but it needs to be done in a nuanced manner so that the movie isn't making fun of the character. Hollywood doesn't really do good, honest, and approachable very well because, by and large, they aren't that way themselves.

This has also been the case of comics writers who see Superman as a problem they need to solve rather than understanding what makes him work and making that relatable. I see a lot of attempts in comics at making Superman "cool" by having him hover over people with his eyes glowing red like and angry alien god. This is the exact opposite of what they should be doing because it only makes Superman look even more alien and unrelatable, and relatability is the biggest hurdle that has to be overcome in order for people to accept the character.

Superman will always be a wish fulfillment character because of his powerset. It's his personality that has to be portrayed correctly in order for people to care about and relate to the character. This means a writer has to understand the word "nuance." If you go too far in any direction -- either by making Superman a goofy boyscout or a quippy badass, then you are headed in the wrong direction. That's why Superman is such a difficult character to write as others have said -- most comics characters don't need that same care and nuance in order to ground them.

As for the movies, I think Zach Snyder's Man of Steel was a great Superman movie. I didn't mind seeing him struggle with accepting who he was because I viewed that movie as the first part in a process where we got to witness him becoming the Superman that we know. I was very intrigued by that and was looking forward to following Superman on that journey rather than having him be classic-Superman fully blown from the beginning. A better title for Man of Steel might have been Superman: Day One. This is why I was OK with Superman killing Zod -- he was so inexperienced, he didn't know any other way, and he instantly regretted it. Going through that experience allowed us to see why Superman developed his code against killing -- the comics did the exact same thing when Superman killed Zod (and the others) during the Byrne run.

I'm sure that if Snyder had been allowed to continue his ideas without studio interference, we would have eventually gotten a Superman that was more familiar to us. Would it have been the bright and cheery Donner version? Of course not, but I wouldn't have wanted that. However, I do think we would have gotten a Superman that had grown into his heroic role over the course of time that we would have admired. The fact that we were going to be able to witness this growth and acceptance of the hero he needed to be was an exciting prospect for me as we hadn't seen that in the movies. I think if Snyder had done Justice League, we would have seen how his death was an important part in that process of self-acceptance where he feels he is given a second chance and doesn't want to squander it.

We'll never see the full character arc that Snyder had planned for Superman, and that's a shame because I was interested in where Snyder was going.

[Sacred Knight]

The Lois grounds him stuff is post-crisis talk through and through and frankly validates concepts like Injustice Superman. That isn't Superman.

Agreed. I am so sick and tired of the concept of grounding. He's grounded as much as he needs to be well before he even becomes Superman. And even after he loses his parents, he remains as grounded as he needs to be. It is not essential to the character to keep having to drive this home. Its pre-packaged into his origin. Nor is it is primary appeal. His appeal was, and always has been, nuanced. Not 100% anything. And I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing of importance in Superman settling down and having a family. You can do it. But you don't have to do it. Its the furthest thing from paramount to the character. Hence why in his 80 year history he's only had a family for all of 2 years.