Why has WB struggled with Superman on the big screen?

[mrbrklyn]

Both are important and relevant.

Saying it doesn't make it true. Cavill should just shut up go find another role to perform. The fans, however, as stakeholders with experience and expertise.

[Sacred Knight]

Or, he can do what is well within practice to do and try to negotiate with his employers. If it doesn't work, and it doesn't appear that it will, fine. You just saying he can't do that and that he should just shut up and find another job doesn't make it true.

[Lokimaru]

They really did not. There are fight scenes that lasted longer.






He only does for three scenes at most in BvS. Donner’s Lex being campy doesn’t mean Snyder’s Lex was somehow good.
Snyder's Lex is the only movie Luthor to figure out Superman's plan and has come far closer to killing him almost any other version.



They also are not the only things he does and other villains have far more stupid moments.



No our current situation is born of WB rushing out a DC movie universe, over reacting to criticisms, carving up movies and struggling to keep actors attached. And none of these were caused by Snyder. He's not even directing DC movies anymore. You people got what you wanted.

You think Lex having a Senator eating out of the palm of his hand is stupid? Snyder's not being subtle here.

[mrbrklyn]

They aren't honest with themselves and are poor at planning.

ANY Superman movie is going to make more money than it costs to produce.

They should develop a good story and a good trilogy plan. Find an actor, sit down and be honest about "this is where we want to go with this series" and then stick to that actor and that progression.

There just seems to be a lot of "we'll see how this does" with superhero films. They aren't amazing dramas...they're money making fluff. People want to see Superman using his powers and doing cool things and they'll be happy.

Superman - the Movie : You'll believe an man can fly!
Man of Steel: You will believe a man can have a British accent

[stargazer01]

Saying it doesn't make it true. Cavill should just shut up go find another role to perform. The fans, however, as stakeholders with experience and expertise.

Cavill should do whatever the hell he wants and he does. It's his career and his life. If he thinks WB's ideas for Superman are wrong, it's his opinion. He is also a fan and reads comics. Fact. You sound like Cavill kicked your dog..

[mrbrklyn]

Cavill kicked your dog..

Back to that. No, I am adult person killing my limited leisure time to explain to you that no one cares what the actor thinks about Superman and that Warner Brothers is a big company that knows how to make good movies. Honestly these latest DC Hero Hero movies were alright. They weren't great, but they were ok. They are always overdone, but I can make a long long list of movies like that starting with Star Trek the Movie that were over produced. Most Superhero movies are over produced, noisey, have lousy dialog, are thin of plot, and are special effects movies with little redeeming value. The exceptions are rare: Iron Man One, WW and Spiderman -Dr Oc... the rest vary from being outright boring to mildly entertaining.

[mrbrklyn]

He is also a fan and reads comics.

how do you know that?

[Last Son of Krypton]

how do you know that?

From interviews obviously.

[mrbrklyn]

From interviews obviously.

do you have a quote? Most people know Superman from animation and the movies.

[HeroVladimir93]

Most people know Superman from animation and the movies.

Someone from another thread said that DC could make a version of Superman using nothing but attributes from the movies and TV shows and people would still say they didn't do him justice because that version of Superman didn't feature what they wanted to see. Ultimately, Superman means so many different things to so many different people that it's tricky to make a proper adaptation.

[mrbrklyn]

Someone from another thread said that DC could make a version of Superman using nothing but attributes from the movies and TV shows and people would still say they didn't do him justice because that version of Superman didn't feature what they wanted to see. Ultimately, Superman means so many different things to so many different people that it's tricky to make a proper adaptation.

I think I read an issue based on this context

[JAK]

Oh, shock value was definitely a big part of it, but I think there were some deeper reasons to go along with that.

I think one of the big things is that Snyder wanted to challenge people's notions about who and what Superman is. There's tons of instances in the comics where Clark has taken a life (hell he's killed Zod in like, half a dozen different stories across various formats). So its not out of character, but the general public doesn't realize that. I think this was just one more way in which Snyder wanted to show people that Clark has more to him than what Donner showed us..

Here's the problem: I could have told you while leaving the theater after MoS that they weren't going to go into it. I'd have bet money. And as it turns out, I'd have won a whole lotta bets.

I'm not saying the end of MoS should have stayed dark at the end; I'm saying I wanted to see some sense of the point of doing it (beyond shock value). When he's talking with Martha, something.. anything. And the fact that there wasn't even a mention after it happened told me they were just making decisions to shock and with no substance. There were so many ways to build from such a sad moment into a message of hopeful resilience and "leading them into the sun" - but instead they chose "oh, crap! We have 5 minutes! Cue all the standard movie ending stuff!".

And as soon as Batman and the BvS title were announced, I knew they wouldn't have time to address it even if they'd wanted to.

I'm still a bit miffed that he allows Kal Penn et al to get crushed...

Totally with you. That ruined an already shaky SR for me. It's even worse than Zod in MoS, as those are humans with no power whatsoever.

how do you know that?

We know this from a good number of things: interviews where he's talked about his favorite stories, Instagrams where he shows off "this week's comics haul" and it's Super-titles. Talking about things to do with Superman that your average person wouldn't know about.

And he's got every right to do and think whatever the heck he wants. He's the face of Superman for now, whether WB likes it or not (and they should, his public perception has basically saved Superman cinematically for a number of people, myself included).

Your attacks on Cavill seem oddly vitriolic. There are few here who dislike MoS and BvS more than I do, and I have nothing but love for Henry. He's been a good ambassador for the character, imo.

[SiegePerilous02]

The fans are more qualified than Cavill, and are far more important.

Well Cavill is a fan of the character, so we've circled back around to his opinion mattering again

I had no problem with the movies, and if you didn't like them, then don't watch them. But that doesn't support the idea that they don't care about their characters. That is false. They do care. Their livelihoods depend on it.

Subjectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with enjoying them. Objectively, this is not a successful franchise in the way the MCU is. Not even close. WW is their only critical and financial success, MOS is a distant second and is very divisive, and the other three are critically panned and all but SS had very weak legs.

People have lost jobs over this. They have not really given any indication they care about the characters, or if they do they don't really understand them or know how to replicate Marvel's success.

Don't think that your opinion is supported by everyone else. Don't even worry about that. It doesn't help your arguments or give you more attention

If you think I'm the only one who thinks all this, I take it you don't post here very often. My opinion is supported by:

- Justice League's entire production, and Snyder and Whedon getting fired after its release
- The 27%, 28% and 40% RT ratings for BvS, SS and JL respectively
- Their constantly changing film slate. We were originally gonna get a Justice League 2, that ain't happening. Aquaman is only proceeding because it was already in production before JL's release, who knows if we'd even be seeing it otherwise.
- Flash can't hold onto a director and is in development hell
- Affleck's back and forth on leaving
- Reeves is on stand by until they figure out what the hell is going on with the Affleck/Batman situation
- Snyder forced to cut up BvS at the last minute, after he was forced to cram a lot of stuff into the movie in the rush to get to a Justice League
- Ayer's rushed and troubled production of SS
- Where's that Nightwing movie that was supposedly happening? They cast Deathstroke, but he was going to be in Ben Affleck's Batman movie, and that's no longer happening. Nothing has been mentioned on if/when we will actually see him
- There have been rumors of a Hal/John GL buddy cop movie which shows no signs of ever materializing
- Nothing in mind for Cyborg
- Cavill and the Superman fandom being jerked around on MOS2, which has yet to get a solid confirmation

None of this is made up. It's all very real. So yes, actual reality shows DCEU is not in good shape aside from WW, for which the stars aligned and they found the right director and left her the hell alone. Wonder Woman is literally the only thing preventing them from trashing all of it, aside from maybe Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn.

[QUOTE=mrbrklyn;3907082]"shitshow" is a term I strongly urge you to stop using in any context.[/I]

Umm...no.

It is fair to criticize how you think the WB process might have produced movies you don't like. But nothing an actor thinks about superman either supports your position. He is just the stupid actor. If he did a Jack Nicolson performance, eh ... that might have given him more weight. But this guy is just another in a long line of Superman comics actors.

I'm well aware that WB has produced several great movies and can produce many more, but they have given nothing besides Wonder Woman in the current slate to indicate that they know what they are doing. If they did, we would not be looking at the situations we are. it's that simple, this is the most reactionary and rushed film franchise and it's not working. Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman is the only hero to be fully embraced the way the MCU ones are. Shazam has a chance and Aquaman has a second chance, but they are not there yet.

The stupid actors have to act out the part and bring the character to life. He is also on set and has first hand experience witnessing how WB handles the character. I think he's more qualified than you or I to know what their ideas on the character is. So far their ideas have not landed, and he knows it as much as everybody else. Even from the outside looking in, the lukewarm to downright hateful reception of the way this Superman has been received really should be telling you all you need to know.

Back to that. No, I am adult person killing my limited leisure time to explain to you that no one cares what the actor thinks about Superman and that Warner Brothers is a big company that knows how to make good movies.

No you are an adult person on a comic book forum killing your limited leisure time telling people that Cavill is stupid for pay disputes in a job in his chosen profession that is how he makes a livelihood and a job that he wants that has SEVERAL potential drawbacks and hasn't worked out so far due to factors outside of his control, but due to factors very much in WB"s control.

Warner Brothers is a big company that also knows how to make bad movies along with their good ones. And the only two Superman movies that are considered big hits and classics were distributed by them, but not actually created by them. What does that tell you?

[JAK]

Warner Brothers is a big company that also knows how to make bad movies along with their good ones. And the only two Superman movies that are considered big hits and classics were distributed by them, but not actually created by them. What does that tell you?

I like your whole post, but that right there's just lovely. Also sad, but very true.

[astro@work]

Well Cavill is a fan of the character, so we've circled back around to his opinion mattering again





- Justice League's entire production, and Snyder and Whedon getting fired after its release
- The 27%, 28% and 40% RT ratings for BvS, SS and JL respectively
- Their constantly changing film slate. We were originally gonna get a Justice League 2, that ain't happening. Aquaman is only proceeding because it was already in production before JL's release, who knows if we'd even be seeing it otherwise.
- Flash can't hold onto a director and is in development hell
- Affleck's back and forth on leaving
- Reeves is on stand by until they figure out what the hell is going on with the Affleck/Batman situation
- Snyder forced to cut up BvS at the last minute, after he was forced to cram a lot of stuff into the movie in the rush to get to a Justice League
- Ayer's rushed and troubled production of SS
- Where's that Nightwing movie that was supposedly happening? They cast Deathstroke, but he was going to be in Ben Affleck's Batman movie, and that's no longer happening. Nothing has been mentioned on if/when we will actually see him
- There have been rumors of a Hal/John GL buddy cop movie which shows no signs of ever materializing
- Nothing in mind for Cyborg
- Cavill and the Superman fandom being jerked around on MOS2, which has yet to get a solid confirmation

I'm well aware that WB has produced several great movies and can produce many more, but they have given nothing besides Wonder Woman in the current slate to indicate that they know what they are doing. If they did, we would not be looking at the situations we are. it's that simple, this is the most reactionary and rushed film franchise and it's not working. Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman is the only hero to be fully embraced the way the MCU ones are. Shazam has a chance and Aquaman has a second chance, but they are not there yet.

These are all the reasons why WB has been unable to make a good Superman movie or successfully launch a connected universe over the last ten years.

The actors are fine in the roles, it's the scripts and studio interference that is sabotaging their own efforts.
I liked many parts of Man of Steel, in spite of (not because of) the grim tone and out-of-character role for Jonathan Kent.
Similarly, I liked BvS okay in spite of the dark tone, and it was saddled with far too much world-building (they could have cut the knightmare sequences and had a much more coherent movie).
JL suffered from too many cooks in the kitchen, and a failure to deliver enough happy moments at the conclusion of the apparent trilogy (where was the rejoicing for Superman's return?)

As mentioned, Wonder Woman has succeeded where the other movies failed because the studio left it alone. I'm hopeful Shazam will succeed for the same reason.