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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    There have been, but that doesn't fit Superman.

    It's also why a PG Deadpool movie or a Punisher movie using fresh flower petals as weapons wouldn't fly with the general public - the whole "square peg, round hole" thing. Sure, it fits *somebody*. Just not *that* somebody.
    With how often Superman has evolved and changed over time and how divided his fandom has become, it's extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, to determine what "doesn't fit him".

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With how often Superman has evolved and changed over time and how divided his fandom has become, it's extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, to determine what "doesn't fit him".
    And yet WB has made an entire quadrilogy of movies that might as well have been called Superman: The Stuff That Does Not Fit Parts 1-4. Yes, I'm including Singer's Superman: Deadbeat Dad.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Just stop drawing from modern Superman so much, MY GOD. It's the same stuff on repeat, Doomsday, Zod, I'm a farmboy at heart, Oh no Lois, I'm a human being at heart, constantly on repeat. It's all so tiresome and dull. You've got 80 years of history to work from on a character that was a ground floor hit so use it.

    Why haven't we gotten an entire movie with just Superman in space dealing with space mysteries.
    Well, I'd argue that before MOS, we didn't have a true 'modern Superman' movie. So its not really an angle that's been as done to death with as you claim.

    Though I agree...I'd love to see a 'Superman in space' story, which is why my personal favorite plot for the next movie is Brainiac and the Bottle City of Kandor story, done Thor: Ragnarok style.

    I also wouldn't mind seeing some elements of the Siegal/Shuster Superman, or Morrison's New 52 arc, especially if they decide to go with a visibly younger Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With how often Superman has evolved and changed over time and how divided his fandom has become, it's extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, to determine what "doesn't fit him".
    And the day some of the more shrill voices in the fandom acknowledge that, we might be able to finally find a way forward

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    And yet WB has made an entire quadrilogy of movies that might as well have been called Superman: The Stuff That Does Not Fit Parts 1-4. Yes, I'm including Singer's Superman: Deadbeat Dad.
    Virtually everything that has been seen Snyder's films has precedent in the comics or other media from Superman being more conflicted to the death of Zod to even Luthor being not all that right in the head. Again, when you're dealing with a character that's been around for 70+ years, some leeway is needed. "Not muh Superman" is not and never will be a valid complaint. The most radical thing Snyder did was remove the two-person love triangle that has always been the most toxic aspect of Lois and Clark's relationship.

    DC seems to have the only fandom in the universe that consistently judges adaptations on how they match other adaptations instead of letting them stand on their own.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-14-2018 at 03:56 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Virtually everything that has been seen Snyder's films has precedent in the comics or other media from Superman being more conflicted to the death of Zod to even Luthor being not all that right in the head. Again, when you're dealing with a character that's been around for 70+ years, some leeway is needed. "Not muh Superman" is not and never will be a valid complaint. The most radical thing Snyder did was remove the two-person love triangle that has always been the most toxic aspect of Lois and Clark's relationship.

    DC seems to have the only fandom in the universe that consistently judges adaptations on how they match other adaptations instead of letting them stand on their own.
    Superman killing Zod or Luthor being just as crazy as the Joker are not elements I have issues with (except for how it was executed).

    But when you have Superman pondering if letting a schoolbus full of kids die would have been better than saving them, something's rotten.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
    Donner, Bruce Timm, and Deborah Levine (Lois & Clark) are the only producers who have gotten Superman right. Superman is not dark and gritty. The Kents are not cyncal, stormTrumper Americans.

    That is all...
    Bruce Timm?

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  7. #37
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    My commentary on Bruce Timm remains the same as it has for the last few years: he meant well, but it's quite telling that he couldn't really nail Superman's competence and effectiveness as a hero until he tried to make a guy (Hernan Guerra) who was supposed to be on the polar opposite end of the spectrum as Superman as we know it.

    Lois & Clark doesn't really nail Superman, either. This was a show that, while I enjoyed, wasn't really meant to be a traditional Superman story arc. It's a show about relationships, and the action and heroism were kind of secondary, i.e. flipping the script of what one would otherwise expect from a Superman story. I was entertained by the show, and I don't complain about how it's not a typical Superman story, because it was always clear to me that the goal was more of a "what-if" then being the new status quo. Besides thinking about how I liked the show as a kid, and the actors as well (wink wink), my biggest takeaway of that show was that "Clark is who I am, and Superman is what I do." Well, when they rename the franchise to "Clark Kent, the Man Who Does Superman" then I'll buy in.

    Anyway, why does Superman struggle? In part, a large reason is that there are too many different strong opinions of what Superman should be to get that kind of consensus on what a good Superman movie is. If you look at Iron Man or something, how many people watched Iron Man 2 and 3 and started complaining, "That's not Tony Stark!" It's like the effin' political theatre going on in our society today; whatever you do is going to be criticized by a non-trivial portion of the people who care about and are affected by it. He's not enough a blank slate that people are going to be willing to accept various takes, and he's not really been written monotonically enough unlike, say, a James Bond type, that you can stick to specific prior source material without people complaining that the characterization is off. Add to that that people think he's overpowered, and other fans complain when you underpower him (guilty as charged!), and at best it's hard to find that compromise that makes so many people happy that the box office return is above $500 million domestic and $1 billion international.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 09-14-2018 at 09:01 AM.

  8. #38
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    Marvel character movies could succeed with Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Black Panther, Deadpool because those characters weren't well-known in the public before the movies came out. So the movies could choose how to define the characters for the masses. You can't easily do that with more well-known characters like Spider-Man, Wolverine, the Fantastic Four, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Teen-Age Mutant Ninja Turtles, the Power Rangers--because the public already has an idea in mind of who they are.

    You can try to go against expectations as MAN OF STEEL did, but that's a big gamble. And it shouldn't be a surprise if people don't recognize that version of the character as the Superman they know. That was the whole point with MOS, to subvert expectations--but the producers hoped the alternative would be so popular with audiences that it would overcome any reluctance.

    WB doesn't know when to fish or cut bait.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    But when you have Superman pondering if letting a schoolbus full of kids die would have been better than saving them, something's rotten.
    The whole point is THAT WAS NOT SUPERMAN. That was a scared kid not knowing what to do, but doing the right thing anyway. What you want them to go all silver age and have him just pick the bus up and fly it out of there in full view? Then what? Oh I know .... the government is at the Kent farm the next day in full force to take into custody Clark and his parents. Clark did not really become Superman until BvS. Before that he was just Clark trying to figure out how he fit into this world so he is not going to be the corny perfect version from the past, nor should he have been.

    And I am so sick of "he killed Zod" whinning. To a huge portion of the movie going people he killed not only Zod but also Ursa and Non in Superman II because the version where he threw them to theirs deaths is the one most of us have seen. If anything having to kill Zod in a life or death fight is 100 times better than seeing a Superman who just throws powerless villains to their deaths in an icy pit. So that arguement has never held any water for me.

    The biggest problem is not Man of Steel. It had enough things going for it that it was fine and gave them enough building blicks to move forward. It was what WB did after MoS that screwed everything up. They rushed everything. If they had not done BvS and had just done a MoS II they would have been fine as long as they had not kept Snyder around. Snyder should have been one and done.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Clark did not really become Superman until BvS.
    This might be a problem in itself. Otherwise, I agree that MoS was a perfectly fine movie, no worse than most of the Marvel movies that seem to be impervious to much of the criticism that comes Supes' way.

  11. #41
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    They struggled because Supes isn’t an easy character to get right.
    "I love mankind...it's people I can't stand!!"

    - Charles Schultz.

  12. #42
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post

    But when you have Superman pondering if letting a schoolbus full of kids die would have been better than saving them, something's rotten.
    That's not really accurate: young Clark saved his peers under the impression that of what he recognized as the right thing was the only option. It was Pa who took issue.

    And five years later, the gist of that dialogue is hilariously ironic, if unfortunate: Clark demands a reason why he shouldn't be Superman, and Pa tells him that upsetting the preconceived notions of what he is or how he should be will draw unpardonable amounts of disdain and confusion.

  13. #43
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Just stop drawing from modern Superman so much, MY GOD. It's the same stuff on repeat, Doomsday, Zod, I'm a farmboy at heart, Oh no Lois, I'm a human being at heart, constantly on repeat. It's all so tiresome and dull. You've got 80 years of history to work from on a character that was a ground floor hit so use it.

    Why haven't we gotten an entire movie with just Superman in space dealing with space mysteries.
    I'd love to see that! We do have to set up the character to get to that (most likely), but it'd be a lot of fun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With how often Superman has evolved and changed over time and how divided his fandom has become, it's extremely difficult, if not outright impossible, to determine what "doesn't fit him".
    It's not that hard, really. Sure, you won't please everybody, but you can get more than not by going with some of the main things. Besides, not even Snyder's Superman was a cynic. But this answer also works, too:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    And yet WB has made an entire quadrilogy of movies that might as well have been called Superman: The Stuff That Does Not Fit Parts 1-4. Yes, I'm including Singer's Superman: Deadbeat Dad.
    More or less, yeah. There are nuggets of amazing possibility in all of them, but much of it unrealized, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    That's not really accurate: young Clark saved his peers under the impression that what he recognize as the right thing was the only option. It was Pawho took issue.

    And five years later, the gist of that dialogue is hilariously ironic, if unfortunate: Clark demands a reason why he shouldn't be Superman, and Pa tells him that upsetting the preconceived notions of what he is or how he should be will draw unpardonable amounts of disdain and confusion.
    LOL! True...
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  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    They struggled because Supes isn’t an easy character to get right.
    But he's not this difficult. He has nuance that not many are able to utilize, yes, but the fact that is such an issue is pretty exasperating and I don't buy its because he's just too difficult. He's deeper than he gets credit for but I refuse to believe its to the level of difficulty that it can't be learned by creative types to the point its been so often botched. I blame far less the difficulty getting Superman as opposed to just not very talented people writing for him who can't be bothered to try and get him.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    But he's not this difficult. He has nuance that not many are able to utilize, yes, but the fact that is such an issue is pretty exasperating and I don't buy its because he's just too difficult. He's deeper than he gets credit for but I refuse to believe its to the level of difficulty that it can't be learned by creative types to the point its been so often botched. I blame far less the difficulty getting Superman as opposed to just not very talented people writing for him who can't be bothered to try and get him.
    Look, all I want is for Superman to be more than just a vanilla goody-two-shoes who never gets angry, never gets sad, never shows any emotion beyond eagerness to do the right thing, is all-powerful and easily solves every problem he comes across. That's a bad stereotype Superman has endured for years.

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