Why has WB struggled with Superman on the big screen?

[stargazer01]

I'm not attacking those actors and their portrayals of Superman. I'm only saying is that many people think that Superman has no glaring character flaws and is always happy. That's a common misconception, one that can be easily fixed if one watches any Superman movie or TV shows. I'm just tired of people dismissing Superman as a boring character. That is obviously not true; Superman can be done justice on-screen. Henry Cavill always rose beyond the material he was given and delivered an honest performance, and that's why I think his dismissal would be the biggest insult to the character since Superman: Truth. I can only hope Henry can have a chance to play Superman again, with a movie that plays to his strengths as an actor.

Clark doesn't have to have big flaws as a person in order to be an interesting person. The fact he can't save everybody is stress enough, especially when you can hear everything. I also found Clark very relatable in MOS when he didn't know what to do with his life and his powers growing up. We saw him always running away looking trying to find answers. That showed humanity and doubts. He doesn't have to be mean or very jealous or very moody. He was just a guy with many questions like many young people are. This is why many young people relate to Cavill's Superman; he didn't have all the answers and he had to search in order to find his destiny. I really loved seeing him learn how to become a superhero. He wasn't an instant hero who knew everything, he had to learn a lot before he came to those conclusions. But even then when he was searching, he still kept helping and saving people despite what Pa said. It showed he has an strong sense of what's right and wrong. Then came BvS and he pretty much regressed emotionally because the plot demanded it. What was he doing and learning those almost 2 years after MOS? It seems nothing. Sure we are quickly told he did a lot of savings, but we never saw it, so it means nothing.

[Killerbee911]

I don't get where people come up with the idea Superman is a boring character. Who are these people? .

Superman fans always get offended at statement that he is boring

1. He has powerset that doesn't put him in danger

2. He is straight arrow character aka does the right thing and has no real flaws

3. Everything he does has to done in precise way in accordance to his history or somebody gets upset so there is little play room for new idea.

That is recipe for a boring character He is never challenged and he never does anything that isn't predictable because he isn't allowed to be real character just an ideal. That is boring when he is executed like that,That is boring over a long period of following the character. No resentment, no hate of the character, I don't have favorite or pet characters.

[Sacred Knight]

Points one and two are outright falsehoods. #1 doesn't take into account that despite his powerset his rogue's gallery have abilities that can and very often do harm him and put him in peril. #2, only bad writers make him flawless. And while there has been a lot of that over the years, Superman is not historically a flawless character.

#3 can be said for any franchise. There's always going to be someone who gets upset. Even with as big as Batman is today, not all his fans are currently happy.

[Carabas]

1. He has powerset that doesn't put him in danger.

What would be an example of a power set that does put one in danger?

[JAK]

Look, all I want is for Superman to be more than just a vanilla goody-two-shoes who never gets angry, never gets sad, never shows any emotion beyond eagerness to do the right thing, is all-powerful and easily solves every problem he comes across. That's a bad stereotype Superman has endured for years.

And Superman isn't that. Most of that has been put on him by people who don't understand the character, and if we're being honest.. have no intention of trying. Superman absolutely shows emotion, just not so much in public when he's Superman. Bendis is (so far) a great example of how to do this right. Goyer/DCEU has been an example of how not to, imo. I'm more interested in a Superman I can enjoy than trying to blindly run away from a stereotype that was even still thrown at the DCEU Superman regardless of how much effort they put into running from it.

Clark doesn't have to have big flaws as a person in order to be an interesting person. The fact he can't save everybody is stress enough, especially when you can hear everything. I also found Clark very relatable in MOS when he didn't know what to do with his life and his powers growing up. We saw him always running away looking trying to find answers. That showed humanity and doubts. He doesn't have to be mean or very jealous or very moody. He was just a guy with many questions like many young people are. This is why many young people relate to Cavill's Superman; he didn't have all the answers and he had to search in order to find his destiny. I really loved seeing him learn how to become a superhero. He wasn't an instant hero who knew everything, he had to learn a lot before he came to those conclusions. But even then when he was searching, he still kept helping and saving people despite what Pa said. It showed he has an strong sense of what's right and wrong. Then came BvS and he pretty much regressed emotionally because the plot demanded it. What was he doing and learning those almost 2 years after MOS? It seems nothing. Sure we are quickly told he did a lot of savings, but we never saw it, so it means nothing.

Exactly. I also liked that he didn't have all the answers - I just wish we'd have had more growth from the character and his methods before the magic "death fix".

Superman fans always get offended at statement that he is boring

That is recipe for a boring character He is never challenged and he never does anything that isn't predictable because he isn't allowed to be real character just an ideal. That is boring when he is executed like that,That is boring over a long period of following the character. No resentment, no hate of the character, I don't have favorite or pet characters.

Superman fans get pissed about that because it's a load of crap from people who don't know squat about the character and don't even try. He's both character and ideal, and there are strong historical reasons for that. And what's boring is the same banal garbage about "Superman is boring" when it's a pre-conceived notion of a straw-man that doesn't really exist.

[Vordan]

Superman fans always get offended at statement that he is boring

1. He has powerset that doesn't put him in danger

2. He is straight arrow character aka does the right thing and has no real flaws

3. Everything he does has to done in precise way in accordance to his history or somebody gets upset so there is little play room for new idea.

That is recipe for a boring character He is never challenged and he never does anything that isn't predictable because he isn't allowed to be real character just an ideal. That is boring when he is executed like that,That is boring over a long period of following the character. No resentment, no hate of the character, I don't have favorite or pet characters.

We get irritated because it’s a load of crap. You want flaws? He botched Lex’s heroic turn because of his own hypocrisy. He doesn’t need to beat children, or be an alcoholic, or abandon his family in the middle of the night to be interesting. Number 2 is flat out wrong, and makes me think you’re just a troll. Besides what the hell do other heroes do? Routinely let people die so they can catch another hour of sleep? Not even Peter Parker does that aside from Uncle Ben. If you want an example of Clark doing the wrong thing, he writes stories about himself without disclosing his identity to Perry, lies to Lois and his other co-workers for years. That’s something that has always been brought up about his relationships. And his power set? Please. Most of the time he’s jobbing to whatever OC of the week shows up. Bendis literally created a new character out of thin air who kicks Superman’s ass. Creating rogues to hurt him is not hard at all, hell hes argubly got the third best Rogues Gallery begins Bats and Spidey.

Edit: My God you’re complaining about Clark whole stanning for bland ass Val-Zod? A character so boring they completely change who and what he is every other issue? One issue he was a pacifist and then suddenly he wasn’t. Dude was kept locked up yet never suffered from any lack of social skills and gets a girlfriend with Kara right out the gate despite them having nothing in common?

[Flash Gordon]

Superman needs a bold new vision.

Even if that means the "Great Metropolitan Newspaper" goes away, or we introduce a little hard sci-fi into the world around him. Modern doesn't have to mean "hey kids look it's Superman, he hates himself too!" He doesn't have to go to war with Batman for vague reasons. Or die in a CGI mess, and return off screen.

I would love to see Clark Kent/Superman tackling "2018", which is not too far off from the world he was born into in 1938.

Actor wise? I like Adam Driver, but John Krasinski and Michael B Jordan are also good choices. Jon Hamm is my perfect pick, but I don't see that happening.

[HeroVladimir93]

"Not muh Superman" is not and never will be a valid complaint.

Yes! Exactly! The only way the Superman fandom can thrive is if they can keep an open mind about the new Superman stories. This kind of reluctance to new Superman products (movies, comics, TV shows) happens because people don't like challenging their own preconceptions about what Superman should or shouldn't be. A long-running franchise needs the right mix of familiarity and originality to move forward. I genuinely enjoyed the new Superman films, flaws and all, and I do my best to maintain an open perspective about what they do. Yes, the narrative progression could have been better but these movies deserve credit for asking viewers what so iconic about Superman and what do they love about him. After everything that's happen, I can only hope the people in charge learn the right lessons from all of this.

Normally, I try to keep an open mind when watching Superman, a character I very much love and respect, because he's had a long history with multiple interpretations. The truth, however, is that people ultimately

[TheBatman]

I think trying to blame unsatisfied fans is the wrong approach, and more often than not, that kind of argument comes from the people who happen to enjoy MOS, SR, or BvS, or at the very least, don't hate those movies. Ultimately, its trying to place blame on people because they happen to disagree with you.

The thing is, for a lot of people, those three movies simply aren't very good, with or without expectations and preconceptions. As I recall, MOS and BvS weren't just divisive among fans, but among critics as well. And as for the the general audience, I personally get the feeling that even if they like those movies, they don't like them the same way they liked the Nolan Batman films or many of the MCU films.

And at the end of the day, MOS and BvS were directed by a man who has constantly made polarizing films. The last time Zack Snyder had an undisputed hit was in 2007. In hindsight, its not really surprising that his DC films weren't universally loved. Truthfully, I think that a better filmmaker would actually be able to sell people on a darker, more serious take on Superman. Execution is key, and the Snyder-Era DCEU films did not have the best execution.

Trying to blame Donner doesn't wash, either. As Vordan pointed out early in the thread, the younger generation has no great ties to Christopher Reeve. The use of Donner continuity did not save SR from having underwhelming Box Office. Anyone who hates the recent Superman because he isn't Donner is a vocal minority.

To answer the thread question, Vordan summed it up:

WB keeps giving the character to people who view him as intrinsically broken and they need to “fix” him.

I would add that that's because WB itself views Superman as intrinsically broken, and they need to "fix" him.

Contrast this with Kevin Feige at Disney/Marvel. You can tell he loves practically every character he works on. And it shows, because the B, C, and D list characters he's adapted to film have become some of the most popular characters in entertainment right now.

[TheBatman]

Yes! Exactly! The only way the Superman fandom can thrive is if they can keep an open mind about the new Superman stories. This kind of reluctance to new Superman products (movies, comics, TV shows) happens because people don't like challenging their own preconceptions about what Superman should or shouldn't be.

I have a reluctance to new Superman products because new Superman products are often mediocre.

People aren't necessarily closed mind just because they don't like the same things you do.

[HeroVladimir93]

I think trying to blame unsatisfied fans is the wrong approach, and more often than not, that kind of argument comes from the people who happen to enjoy MOS, SR, or BvS, or at the very least, don't hate those movies. Ultimately, its trying to place blame on people because they happen to disagree with you.

The thing is, for a lot of people, those three movies simply aren't very good, with or without expectations and preconceptions. As I recall, MOS and BvS weren't just divisive among fans, but among critics as well. And as for the the general audience, I personally get the feeling that even if they like those movies, they don't like them the same way they liked the Nolan Batman films or many of the MCU films.

And at the end of the day, MOS and BvS were directed by a man who has constantly made polarizing films. The last time Zack Snyder had an undisputed hit was in 2007. In hindsight, its not really surprising that his DC films weren't universally loved. Truthfully, I think that a better filmmaker would actually be able to sell people on a darker, more serious take on Superman. Execution is key, and the Snyder-Era DCEU films did not have the best execution.

Trying to blame Donner doesn't wash, either. As Vordan pointed out early in the thread, the younger generation has no great ties to Christopher Reeve. The use of Donner continuity did not save SR from having underwhelming Box Office. Anyone who hates the recent Superman because he isn't Donner is a vocal minority.

The Richard Donner films, at least the first two, certainly earned their reputations as classics of the genre; but if Superman is to move on, Warner and DC have to make a genuine effort. I admit the DCEU Superman, with his moments of self-criticism, is influenced by Christian Bale's Batman, instead of a more reliable source like the DCAU Superman or the Geoff Johns era. Yes, Geoff Johns draws from the Donner films, but only to a point, maybe the same could be done in the Superman movies.

I have a reluctance to new Superman products because new Superman products are often mediocre.

People aren't necessarily closed mind just because they don't like the same things you do.

I don't have to like every little thing with Superman with it and I admit there are things about Superman I'm not gonna defend (New 52, Truth, Smallville). I just think DC and Warner should stop trying to reinvent the wheel with Superman and instead dedicate themselves to celebrate what made Superman great in the first place. Superman, with his level of nuance, is tricky to pull off but he is not impossible. Ultimately, he should be handled with people who genuinely want to make Superman stories, not Batman stories that feature Superman as a supporting character. I still think Batman v Superman was mostly a Batman film that just happened to feature Superman. Wonder Woman was a success because it deliberately went against the standards sent by the Batman movies, so it stands to reason that Warner and DC can do the same to Superman.

[Ascended]

Superman fans always get offended at statement that he is boring

1. He has powerset that doesn't put him in danger

2. He is straight arrow character aka does the right thing and has no real flaws

3. Everything he does has to done in precise way in accordance to his history or somebody gets upset so there is little play room for new idea.

That is recipe for a boring character He is never challenged and he never does anything that isn't predictable because he isn't allowed to be real character just an ideal. That is boring when he is executed like that,That is boring over a long period of following the character. No resentment, no hate of the character, I don't have favorite or pet characters.

There's a thread here about the "different sides of Superman you want the public to be more aware of" (I probably have the title wrong). Go check it out. You'll find that the idea of Superman being some perfect, flawless pinnacle is a falsehood that exists only in the minds of people who don't actually know anything about Superman. A few of those people have actually fallen into the job of writing him unfortunately, but in the overall course of history they're an exception, not the rule, and every character has had bad writers at various points. This is no different.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Film-making is more like alchemy than chemistry and pretty hard to get right.

They are unsure of how to write Superman as a character, often being blinded by his iconic do-gooder status. They have tried to write him as fallible but can miss the mark. Wisecrack did videos on how both BvS and MoS stumbled in its depiction of Superman so definetely check tht out. Or if you have a ton of free time go check out Moviebob's 3 part thesis on why BvS fell flat.

[Jim Kelly]

The movies never get very far with Superman. At least SUPERMAN RETURNS tried to give the character a next chapter, with his super-son. And SUPERMAN V BATMAN might have been in a rush to fit every DC story into one movie, but they did manage to include an abbreviated Death of Superman.

There are thousands of villains, spin-off characters, plots, fantasy concepts in the Superman canon. But the movies can never get to them. The gravity of the origin story and two super-villains is too strong to build up the escape velocity to launch the franchise toward other worlds. Kal-El's rocket keeps falling back to Earth and WB has to go back to their rocket science drawing board.

Luckily there are several live action tv shows and cartoons that provide some of that Super content. And now with the DC streaming service, maybe more people will discover these things called comic books that have been around for 80 years.

Hey, why are we tying ourselves up in knots about a bunch of movies? There's more to Superman than that. It's not worth the bother to ruminate on that cinematic junk.

[PhantomStranger]

Timm got better with Superman as things went on, but better is a relative term here, it was a pretty underwhelming start so the bar was set low to begin with, and even then it was never anything to write home about. The Timmverse has more claim to fame with aspects of Superman's supporting cast/rogues gallery than Superman himself. Timm gets Batman. Anyone else is a huge crapshoot. More often than not he was miss with Superman as opposed to hit, imo.

Timm gets not only Supes and Bats, but he gets nearly all the others as well. Justice League and JLU in particular are the gold standard by which all other incarnations of those characters are measured.