Why has WB struggled with Superman on the big screen?

[stargazer01]

Superman fans always get offended at statement that he is boring

1. He has powerset that doesn't put him in danger

.

Really? Then I wonder why Batman is able to kick his ass, and according to his fanboys, to defeat him..

[stargazer01]

"Is Superman the best superhero of all time?"

"Possibly, but the fact that he is still relevant today despite being the first superhero ever created is really a testament to the staying power of his ideals and character."

https://twitter.com/Mets/status/1041092990721118209


It's true, Superman is still very relevant in pop culture. The big problem he has is that the people in charge don't know how to use and promote him effectively. Superman needs better content in general. I think MOS and BvS are good movies but they are Not mainstream enough. Snyder doesn't know how to make movies for the masses (Superman Returns was the same). His style is too niche. I've said it before, but IMO it's true. Superman needs a great movie with a solid story that it's also very entertaining and enjoyable and fun. General audiences don't go to this movies for art. They go to be entertained and have an escape from reality. I think Superman films can be both, but with those budgets they really need to be damn entertaining and yeah FUN for the whole family.

[mrbrklyn]

"Is Superman the best superhero of all time?"

"Possibly, but the fact that he is still relevant today despite being the first superhero ever created is really a testament to the staying power of his ideals and character."

https://twitter.com/Mets/status/1041092990721118209


It's true, Superman is still very relevant in pop culture. The big problem he has is that the people in charge don't know how to use and promote him effectively. Superman needs better content in general. I think MOS and BvS are good movies but they are Not mainstream enough. Snyder doesn't know how to make movies for the masses (Superman Returns was the same). His style is too niche. I've said it before, but IMO it's true. Superman needs a great movie with a solid story that it's also very entertaining and enjoyable and fun. General audiences don't go to this movies for art. They go to be entertained and have an escape from reality. I think Superman films can be both, but with those budgets they really need to be damn entertaining and yeah FUN for the whole family.

The problem is that they don't keep it simple and they don't trust the character to sell itself. What they need to do is look what Max Fleisher did and template it. Superman being Super is what sells. It is really straight forward with minimum plot twists.

[mrbrklyn]

My commentary on Bruce Timm remains the same as it has for the last few years: he meant well, but it's quite telling that he couldn't really nail Superman's competence and effectiveness as a hero until he tried to make a guy (Hernan Guerra) who was supposed to be on the polar opposite end of the spectrum as Superman as we know it.

Lois & Clark doesn't really nail Superman, either. This was a show that, while I enjoyed, wasn't really meant to be a traditional Superman story arc. It's a show about relationships, and the action and heroism were kind of secondary.

That is what superman has always been about.

[stargazer01]

The problem is that they don't keep it simple and they don't trust the character to sell itself. What they need to do is look what Max Fleisher did and template it. Superman being Super is what sells. It is really straight forward with minimum plot twists.

Yeah good point. They over complicate the character.. I noticed many fans saying that they needed Superman to be more super, to smile more and to be less brooding in the new movies. It's why some loved him in Justice League because he was confident. I really think that the brooding was overdone in BvS. It put many off.

I also think it's very important for a Superman movie to have a lot of heart and humanity. Superman helping others in different ways is something many want to see again. We also need to see him struggle with some feelings, just don't overdo it. We don't need another melodrama. Not yet. Of course we also want to see him in moments of true happiness with Lois and Ma and when he is just Superman helping people and those people loving him back. And a well-written villain and a solid story and plot and some fantastic and imaginative action. It isn't that hard really.. sigh.

Seriously, this guy is Wonderful!

superman_3_2.jpg

[mrbrklyn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djwgODXqIro

[Killerbee911]

And Superman isn't that. Most of that has been put on him by people who don't understand the character, and if we're being honest.. have no intention of trying. Superman absolutely shows emotion, just not so much in public when he's

Superman fans get pissed about that because it's a load of crap from people who don't know squat about the character and don't even try. He's both character and ideal, and there are strong historical reasons for that. And what's boring is the same banal garbage about "Superman is boring" when it's a pre-conceived notion of a straw-man that doesn't really exist.

There's a thread here about the "different sides of Superman you want the public to be more aware of" (I probably have the title wrong). Go check it out. You'll find that the idea of Superman being some perfect, flawless pinnacle is a falsehood that exists only in the minds of people who don't actually know anything about Superman. A few of those people have actually fallen into the job of writing him unfortunately, but in the overall course of history they're an exception, not the rule, and every character has had bad writers at various points. This is no different.

So two things

1. I am avid comic book reader, I have watched all of the animated stuff for DC(from justice league to his animated series) , I watch all of the tv live action(Smallville,Lois and Clark,even a little superman adventures show) all of the Supermans movies. The most annoying about this convo is people acting like they have insight superman that other people are unable to see. I am very familiar with character I understand the character. Only difference between me and you guys I don't have undying loyalty to the concept

2. I didn't say Superman is boring ,I said that is boring when he is executed like that,That is boring over a long period of following the character. Superman fans like to pretend that stuff said isn't real legit issues or writing that style of character that has very little flaws takes some subtlety that not everybody can do. Captain America, Spiderman, Cyclops, Jack Ryan aka straight arrow boy scout characters can be boring and Dr Manhattan,Silver Surfer, Wonder Woman,Thor aka Powerhouse characters that near pinnacle in their comic universe can be boring. Superman fall under those two things that can be really hard to write well .It is not make believe issue but what sets Superman over top is legion of fans who have such strong of opinion of what Superman is that superman is written like an ideal. We can go 3 or 4 movies without Captain America saving one person or being a little moody in a couple. Superman goes one movie without smiling or he doesn't rescue a kitty some fans have meltdown.


Anyways topic is about is why Superman has failed on the big screen. People are over thinking

Superman returns failed because it was love letter to first movies and wasn't trying to own original thing . Also the movie action wise was lacking.

MoS failed it had one scene that went against most people think superman would do otherwise it was 90% a good superman movie

Batman V Superman failed because they were trying to set up universe instead of making a good movie

Justice League failed because instead of set up heroes individually the rush out to put out this movie again push a share universe. So instead on 7 best superheroes in comics being amazing in a movie you have rookie flash and cyborg being meh, Superman having way to much importance in comparison Wonder Woman,Aquaman and Batman and almost devaluing them being around.

Honestly MoS without neck snap and Jonathan Kent out character moment was an awesome Superman movie, Superman Returns with a better ending/villain would have good movie as well. They aren't missing Superman with huge swings and share uni stuff Superman himself hasn't been the weak point. Which is what makes the Cavil announcement if it is true disappointing because they have a good superman in place and they have the tone of Superman right after Justice League. The biggest problem with DC movies right now imo they are overreacting to things. A lighter tone wasn't really necessary(appreciated tho)they just needed small story tweaks and continue on your set line. Batman is only property that is allowed to fail and DC says we are keeping going with that. Look at Sony with Spiderman, Fox with Wolverine, Marvel with Hulk and Thor. Even with setbacks they went okay let's keep going with it we can fix it. Sometimes you have pull a Incredible hulk and that is what needed to happen Green Lantern and that what needs to happen with Superman. Use what works and pretend like stuff that didn't doesn't exist make another movie. I don't think anyone is dreading a Man of Steel 2 with Henry Cavil and new director

[Username taken]

One thing that occured to me today...Warner Bros technically didn't start making Superman movies until the Tim Burton project in the 90's that eventually through development hell and evolution became Superman Returns. The Chris Reeve era films with the exception of IV were all made and put together by the Salkinds. All WB did was invest some money and distribute them. IV was largely a Canon films production that WB distributed.

WB didn't really own the Superman film rights until the Salkinds sold them back to WB in 1992 ish.

So technically counting SR, MOS, BvS and JL, Warners has only been in the business of making Superman movies in the last decade or so with over a decade of development purgatory leading up to it. And of those four films only two were actual honest to God Superman solo movies.

Meanwhile WB has been pretty much involved at every level (in partnership with Uslan and Melniker) on Batman since the mid 80s and has made 7 solo Batman movies and essentially turned a Superman sequel into an 8th movie.

That alone sort of explains a lot.

Very, very good points.

It actually does explain a lot.

[Carabas]

Timm gets not only Supes and Bats, but he gets nearly all the others as well. Justice League and JLU in particular are the gold standard by which all other incarnations of those characters are measured.

Meh.
I never cared for his comedy relief Flash and his space marine John Stewart.

[bat39]

Meh.
I never cared for his comedy relief Flash and his space marine John Stewart.

I thought they were one of the best dynamics on the show. But to each his own

See, we can respectfully disagree about differing portrayals of characters like GL and Flash...the days fans can start doing that with Superman would be the day the character is truly free to evolve.

[SiegePerilous02]

Timm gets not only Supes and Bats, but he gets nearly all the others as well. Justice League and JLU in particular are the gold standard by which all other incarnations of those characters are measured.

I wouldn't say he's the gold standard at all for anything other than Batman, and even that was better in the original series.

Wonder Woman in particular was downright awful in that show.

[PhantomStranger]

The problem is that they don't keep it simple and they don't trust the character to sell itself. What they need to do is look what Max Fleisher did and template it. Superman being Super is what sells. It is really straight forward with minimum plot twists.

The problem with heroes that represent ideals like Superman or Captain America is that the nations they supposedly represent are so dark, cynical, and fallen from those ideals that doing them right would make too many people uncomfortable.

[PhantomStranger]

Meh.
I never cared for his comedy relief Flash and his space marine John Stewart.

"Comedy relief" Flash (start at 1:30)



As for Stewart, Timm took the "also was" GL and made him a lead (and a GOOD ONE) long before the whole "diversity" craze started.

[PhantomStranger]

I wouldn't say he's the gold standard at all for anything other than Batman, and even that was better in the original series.

Wonder Woman in particular was downright awful in that show.

She wasn't great, but she was really good, esp as the series progressed. Some of her standout moments were flirting with Batman in "This Little Piggy", and her wordless "F-U" to King Faraday in "To Another Shore".

The female leaguers are a particular strength of Timms, as in the series-long develpment of Shaera, and the interesting rivalry/dynamic between Black Canary and Huntress.

[JAK]

So two things

1. I am avid comic book reader, I have watched all of the animated stuff for DC(from justice league to his animated series) , I watch all of the tv live action(Smallville,Lois and Clark,even a little superman adventures show) all of the Supermans movies. The most annoying about this convo is people acting like they have insight superman that other people are unable to see. I am very familiar with character I understand the character. Only difference between me and you guys I don't have undying loyalty to the concept

2. I didn't say Superman is boring ,I said that is boring when he is executed like that,That is boring over a long period of following the character. Superman fans like to pretend that stuff said isn't real legit issues or writing that style of character that has very little flaws takes some subtlety that not everybody can do. Captain America, Spiderman, Cyclops, Jack Ryan aka straight arrow boy scout characters can be boring and Dr Manhattan,Silver Surfer, Wonder Woman,Thor aka Powerhouse characters that near pinnacle in their comic universe can be boring. Superman fall under those two things that can be really hard to write well .It is not make believe issue but what sets Superman over top is legion of fans who have such strong of opinion of what Superman is that superman is written like an ideal. We can go 3 or 4 movies without Captain America saving one person or being a little moody in a couple. Superman goes one movie without smiling or he doesn't rescue a kitty some fans have meltdown.

And if you've been watching, he isn't executed like that, generally. If Superman bores you, that's *you*. And that's fine. But that's not everyone. Not by a long shot. That's why some of us say we have a better understanding of the character. To give an alternate example, the Power Rangers bore me to tears. But I don't go saying they're boring. They're just not for me. And that's also fine.

The problem is perception, and a company that doesn't know what the heck they're doing when it comes to the character in live action.

Superman returns failed because it was love letter to first movies and wasn't trying to own original thing . Also the movie action wise was lacking.

2nd part yes, first part no. I've said this a million times and people don't listen - SR was the surface stuff of S:TM and didn't get the heart of it. It tried to be a love letter, but instead just copied it superficially. But you're right that it definitely needed more action. Superman was WAAAAY too passive.

MoS failed it had one scene that went against most people think superman would do otherwise it was 90% a good superman movie

Take out Pa's death scene and the end of the Zod fight and you have a decent starter movie. Fairly generic in a sci-fi/action movie sense, but not a bad start.

Batman V Superman failed because they were trying to set up universe instead of making a good movie

Yep. No time for character growth when they're trying to introduce new characters and shoehorn in two other stories. lol

Justice League failed because instead of set up heroes individually the rush out to put out this movie again push a share universe. So instead on 7 best superheroes in comics being amazing in a movie you have rookie flash and cyborg being meh, Superman having way to much importance in comparison Wonder Woman,Aquaman and Batman and almost devaluing them being around.

Yes for most - though I'm still of the opinion that it did as poorly as it did due to the DCEU's public perception after MoS and BvS. Superman's the core of the DCU, and he doesn't devalue them - or wouldn't if the movie's execution had been better in the final act.

Honestly MoS without neck snap and Jonathan Kent out character moment was an awesome Superman movie, Superman Returns with a better ending/villain would have good movie as well. They aren't missing Superman with huge swings and share uni stuff Superman himself hasn't been the weak point. Which is what makes the Cavil announcement if it is true disappointing because they have a good superman in place and they have the tone of Superman right after Justice League. The biggest problem with DC movies right now imo they are overreacting to things. A lighter tone wasn't really necessary(appreciated tho)they just needed small story tweaks and continue on your set line. Batman is only property that is allowed to fail and DC says we are keeping going with that. Look at Sony with Spiderman, Fox with Wolverine, Marvel with Hulk and Thor. Even with setbacks they went okay let's keep going with it we can fix it. Sometimes you have pull a Incredible hulk and that is what needed to happen Green Lantern and that what needs to happen with Superman. Use what works and pretend like stuff that didn't doesn't exist make another movie. I don't think anyone is dreading a Man of Steel 2 with Henry Cavil and new director

This I also mostly agree with. Even the story ideas haven't been bad. What's been bad is the execution. I want to see Superman learn his confidence. I want to see him learning the best ways to protect people, sometimes going against his own natural instincts of self-preservation to do so (tanker in MoS would have been perfect for this). That's not that hard. They just need to find writers and directors who aren't obsessed with pathos. Some is good, absolutely, but there's a limit - especially when it comes to Superman.