Why has WB struggled with Superman on the big screen?

[Carabas]

"Comedy relief" Flash (start at 1:30).

Doesn't really count if you only do that in the final episode of the final season.

[Agent Z]

"Comedy relief" Flash (start at 1:30)

He was comedy relief for the majority of the show. That scene, great as it was, is the exception not the rule when it came to Timm's Flash. It's also given the casual audience the idea that all Flashes are hyper comic relief characters despite the fact that only Bart Allen (Impulse) fits that description.

She wasn't great, but she was really good, esp as the series progressed. Some of her standout moments were flirting with Batman in "This Little Piggy", and her wordless "F-U" to King Faraday in "To Another Shore".

The female leaguers are a particular strength of Timms, as in the series-long develpment of Shaera, and the interesting rivalry/dynamic between Black Canary and Huntress.

All Timm's Diana had going for her was her misandry and her attraction to Batman. She's arguably the flatest of the Original Seven in the DCAU. The attraction to Batman is especially glaring as poor writing because by his own admission, Timm made it up because he couldn't think of anything better to do with her. Yeah, he wrote some characters well but he screwed up with others.

You only need to look at the response to Patty Jenkins' take on Diana to see how much better you can do than Timm's version. The best thing I can say about DCAU Diana is she's not as horrendously written as the Injustice or Frank Miller versions. She's on par with Geoff Johns' take though.

[Carabas]

Take out Pa's death scene and the end of the Zod fight and you have a decent starter movie. Fairly generic in a sci-fi/action movie sense, but not a bad start.

I don't have an issue with the end of the Zod fight (well, except for Clark's freakout afterwards), but for Pa... just cut him from the movie completely. Ma Kent was single.

[SiegePerilous02]

She wasn't great, but she was really good, esp as the series progressed. Some of her standout moments were flirting with Batman in "This Little Piggy", and her wordless "F-U" to King Faraday in "To Another Shore".

The female leaguers are a particular strength of Timms, as in the series-long develpment of Shaera, and the interesting rivalry/dynamic between Black Canary and Huntress.

She got better, but that's not saying much. They glossed over her origin in the beginning and then had Diana banished from the island for bringing men to it in order to help the Amazons. Her rogues gallery was treated like jokes except for Circe, who was at least treated as dangerous, but barely interacted with Diana. Timm had her flirt with Batman because he didn't know what else to do with her after he eliminated pairing her up with Superman due to it being boring/predictable, as if there is nothing else to do with her but pair her up with one of them.

I don't know if we can credit him with treating the female Leaguers well. Gail Simone wrote the script for the Canary/Huntress dynamic, and of course there is his weird fixation with shipping Bruce and Babs. Shayera and Vixen were great, but that's pretty much it.

[Sacred Knight]

Timm gets not only Supes and Bats, but he gets nearly all the others as well. Justice League and JLU in particular are the gold standard by which all other incarnations of those characters are measured.

Don't tell that to Wonder Woman fans. That's the worst incarnation of the character to ever exist in any media. It has been outright admitted many times that Timm hadn't the first clue about her character and it showed. Where JL/U thrived was again, Batman because he's the character Timm got and loved best and got the bulk of the attention, and utilizing lesser-known characters like John and Hawkgirl. Especially when it entered its "Unlimited" era it helped put more C to D list characters on the map. Beyond that, it was never anything special for the big guns. Sometimes outright damaging.

Its no gold standard, except maybe with some of the lesser characters mentioned above. The comics and other media have been better off for a long time due to its influence waning. Granted, the roster make-up has become an inspiration recently for Snyder's JL what with the addition of John and Hawkgirl, but thankfully that's about as far as the inspiration goes from what I can tell.

[marhawkman]

Meh.
I never cared for his comedy relief Flash and his space marine John Stewart.

Space marine John Stewart is best John Stewart.

As for Flash being "comic relief"... Just look at his conversation with Orion in "Flash and Substance". That is one of those episodes where it redefines how you look at a character.

[Francisco]

The answer to that question is quite simple: He is not Batman.
That's the reason BvS had a lot of unnecessary Batman scenes while critical character building/character defyning Superman scenes were left in the floor of the edition room.
The WB will sacrifice everything and everyone to the altars of the batgod.

[marhawkman]

ooh, found a nice vid with a few of the highlights.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ACt5NlqLo

[stargazer01]

The answer to that question is quite simple: He is not Batman.
That's the reason BvS had a lot of unnecessary Batman scenes while critical character building/character defyning Superman scenes were left in the floor of the edition room.
The WB will sacrifice everything and everyone to the altars of the batgod.

I see your point, but in the same film and in JL Bruce admitted that Superman/Clark was a better person and more human than he was. He became a hero again thanks to Superman's sacrifice. Hell, in JL Bruce couldn't do anything against Superman's power.

Also, in the the new Death of Superman, he basically saves the world and Batman again admitted the world needed Clark. That shows some respect to Superman, IMO. If I remember well, they also call Superman the leader of the JL.

[DochaDocha]

As for Flash being "comic relief"... Just look at his conversation with Orion in "Flash and Substance". That is one of those episodes where it redefines how you look at a character.

I'm not a huge Flash fan, so I can't say I found JL/JLU to be offensive at all to Flash. However, for the sake of argument, I'd say if you didn't like all the joking from Flash, you can't all of the sudden undo that take on the character with two scenes late in the series. I mean, the scenes help shape the narrative, but doesn't change everything that came before.

Anyway, I want to be respectful toward other fans with differing opinions, but when I read that JL/JLU had great consistent portrayals of Superman, WW, etc., I get triggered. Let's just say I don't agree.

[JAK]

I don't have an issue with the end of the Zod fight (well, except for Clark's freakout afterwards), but for Pa... just cut him from the movie completely. Ma Kent was single.

I have a problem with it because it was done for shock and not much else. It's not a real learning moment as Snyder said it would be (no reference in the "should I kill Batman" convo with Lois, for instance), and the movie cinematically neck-snaps the viewer by going into "ok, movie's about over, time to be happy!!" in the very next scene. They did it as a "it would be cool if" thing.

I don't ever like Superman killing, really.. but if it's going to be done, though, they better explore the ramifications. And that was never going to happen.

It struck me as a cheap "bad guy dies in the end of an action movie" trope, only notable because it's Superman.

[Carabas]

I have a problem with it because it was done for shock and not much else.

Isn't that true for pretty much the entire movie except for the scenes with Lois?

[marhawkman]

I'm not a huge Flash fan, so I can't say I found JL/JLU to be offensive at all to Flash. However, for the sake of argument, I'd say if you didn't like all the joking from Flash, you can't all of the sudden undo that take on the character with two scenes late in the series. I mean, the scenes help shape the narrative, but doesn't change everything that came before.

Well, it's like Orion said. "You play the fool to hide a warrior's pain." IE Flash makes jokes in much the same way Spider-man does. He finds crimefighting depressing and it makes him feel better.

[DochaDocha]

Well, it's like Orion said. "You play the fool to hide a warrior's pain." IE Flash makes jokes in much the same way Spider-man does. He finds crimefighting depressing and it makes him feel better.

I feel like, though, that episode should've come much earlier in the series. When it comes that late in the series, it feels like a corrective episode, or one meant to add depth that had yet to be addressed.

[Carabas]

Well, it's like Orion said. "You play the fool to hide a warrior's pain." IE Flash makes jokes in much the same way Spider-man does. He finds crimefighting depressing and it makes him feel better.

Yeah, but that scene and the finale are the only things in the entire show even remotely hinting at DCAU Wally having any kind of depth at all.