The Return of Val Zod

[Armor of God]

Um, who's comparing every black character to Miles Morales. I'm surely not, so that comment is ridiculous and isn't needed needed here. With that said, let's get one a few things straight.


1) We're talking about current times, not past times. After all, Spawn had a movie, was the best selling book, toys, video games and more. And where is he now? Where is Steel now? Where is Batwing now? Now where is Miles now? Exactly.


2) There is no "real test" for miles. Miles has already reached stardom. The fact that Sony ended their E3 presentation for their Spider Man Demo showing Miles should illustrates that, or the fact that his Young Adult Novel Book was a Best Seller, or the fact that he's the third black superhero from Marvel to get a movie, or the fact that he's in every spider man cartoon.


3) Only Val Zod can really be compared to Miles Morales, because he's the only one that fits close to the same formula as Miles Morales performed.
Batwing had a completely different power set, originally working in a completely different country and had almost none of batman original villains.
He was associated with Batman by mostly name, symbol only. Steel is a little closer, he actually replaced Superman due to Superman dying. But he
was one of four, again had none of the power sets, and mostly just had a connection with Clark. His interaction with the superman mythos was again
limited.

The thing that brought Miles to Stardom was the fact that he had similar costume, he replaced spider man of that world, and the most important parts (besides good writing and art of course) was that he possessed spider man's power set (plus a few added powers to boot) and he was completely enriched in the spider man mythos WHILE still having his own. He found many of Spider Man's villains, had close relationships with Gwen, Spider Woman, etc, and yet still had his own parents and villains
he fought.

That's what Val Zod shares. Val Zod has the same power set, replaced Superman from the Earth 2 universe, formed close relationships with Lois Lane and was dating/close with Power Girl, and has a very similar costume with a unique and awesome color scheme. He literally has almost all the pieces that Miles had that turned him into a success. The only thing missing, is that creative and advertising push from DC. With that, DC can and would have their answer to Miles Morales.


So let's get that straight, if there's others comparing black heroes to Miles Morales, that's on them. But that's not me, the only hero that shares all the traits that makes Miles Morales a success is Val Zod.


With that said, I'm not knocking Calvin Ellis, I would love to have that book release as well. (And it's asinine to me that so many people are thinking it has to be a one or another, like somehow we both characters can't be published at the same time.) But in terms of capability of success, Val Zod is the closest to Miles Morales in order to replicate that same formula.

I wasn't directly accussing you, its just something that keeps coming up everytime Black characters are talked about.

Well then where is Val Zod now?

I have no real knowledge of Miles as I've never been a major Spider-Man reader but the things you keep saying about him makes me wonder if there's anything actually original about him other than being a race bent Peter named Miles. But really if you think all that stuff about Miles having Spider-Man's powers, position, villains, costume etc is what makes him successful then that criterion is easily applicable to Calvin Ellis not Val Zod. Val never fought Superman villains, nor did he even truly become Superman. As I remember Power Girl was Superman's heir.
As for test, yes I stand by it. Infact your points even make my arguments stronger. If he really is competing directly with Parker in such a manner then I believe he's not out of the woods yet. Lets see where he is 10 years from now, lets see how he holds up without Bendis. See Wally West, I'm sure his fans thought that he was untouchable, now look at him.
I disagree, I think Calvin has more potential. He's associated with Grant Morrison's works and was not a part of a trainwreck franchise, he was his own man and had a cool factor about him.

Well both characters really cant be published at the same time, that's actually true. If DC could sell multiple more Superman books then I'm sure they would have done it by now.

[leo619]

Well then where is Val Zod now?

Sadly stuck in Limbo due to the horrible writing the world's end writer did to the Earth 2 series. Before that, He, and the Earth 2 book was doing perfectly fine in sales and stories. It wasn't until that writer came in when he turned earth 2 into a jobber world for Darkseid, have Val Zod quit being Superman, and given even removed his power for half of each day (due to some red sun nonsense that happens on a daily basis.) So of course, when you place a writer that treats characters like crap, there's a good chance the book that's reading for the characters will eventually dwindle in sales.

Hence why I say bring Bendis into the fold. The same magic he can brought to Miles Morales he can do for Val Zod.

I have no real knowledge of Miles as I've never been a major Spider-Man reader but the things you keep saying about him makes me wonder if there's anything actually original about him other than being a race bent Peter named Miles. But really if you think all that stuff about Miles having Spider-Man's powers, position, villains, costume etc is what makes him successful then that criterion is easily applicable to Calvin Ellis not Val Zod. Val never fought Superman villains, nor did he even truly become Superman. As I remember Power Girl was Superman's heir.

Well I've have every one of Miles Morales comic since he's first was introduced, and the fact that he has become as successful as he has clearly means he has found an audience that relates to the character. So rather you find him unoriginal or not is completely up to you, it doesn't change his success. With that said, Both is incorrect. Val Zod's first villain that he fought was the Earth 2 version of Bizarro, and he became Superman at the end of arc. World's End originally played with the idea of both Val and Kara sharing the mantle of Superman which would have been awesome (though weird since PG did not want to have that mantle normally.) but essentially the world end writer stripped the mantle off of Val Zod and gave it to Kara (Though Val Zod put back on the mantle towards the end of the series with the new writer closed it out). And you're completely neglecting the other aspect of Miles Morales that Val Zod does share that Calvin Harris doesn't, such as him being his own character vs an alternate reality version of Kal El. Due to Miles Morales being his own character, and not a black peter parker, this allowed him to eventually cross over into the main universe where he currently resides. We saw what happened when to clark kents enter the same universe not too long ago, the new 52 universe clark kent essentially disappeared.
They won't allow Calvin Ellis and Clark Kent to reside in the same universe for long, but it's much more likely for Val Zod and Clark Kent to work side by side. (Just like how Clark Kent and Kenan worked together.)

As for test, yes I stand by it. Infact your points even make my arguments stronger. If he really is competing directly with Parker in such a manner then I believe he's not out of the woods yet. Lets see where he is 10 years from now, lets see how he holds up without Bendis. See Wally West, I'm sure his fans thought that he was untouchable, now look at him.

You stand by it and I disagree with it, because for one there is no competing involved when it comes to Miles Morales and Peter Parker. No one is asking Peter Parker to get kicked to the curve so that Miles Morales can become spider man in the main MCU. Their sharing the mantle, and there's nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, Wally West was an attempt to replace Barry Allen in the "main" DCU universe, not from an alternate one. I've always believed they would revert back because sadly that's how comics go, status quo is law. With that said, I never stated he's untouchable. Anything can happen. All it takes is some horrible writing from this new author selected and Miles in comic form could just be seen only on champions. But the same can be said for almost any character. The only untouchable heroes are probably bruce wayne batman, peter parker spider man, and xmen. That's it really. Newer writers are less willing to stick with a book if it's crap so that could be a complementary issue but I've always disagreed with the idea of purchasing a book when the book quality is bad in your eyes.

I disagree, I think Calvin has more potential. He's associated with Grant Morrison's works and was not a part of a trainwreck franchise, he was his own man and had a cool factor about him.

And I disagree, I believe Val Zod being a different character that believes in pacifism, which is a stark contrast to how many black characters are written has a lot more potential. He was written in a book that was a great franchise that ended horribly sadly, different strokes for different folks.

Well both characters really cant be published at the same time, that's actually true. If DC could sell multiple more Superman books then I'm sure they would have done it by now.

Not true at all, seeing as DC did publish multiple superman books at once (and still does with superman and supergirl.) Just like how Marvel makes multiple Spider Man Books, or multiple Iron Man Books, the only thing holding DC back really is the effort and drive to make both Val Zod and Calvin Ellis succeed. Because outside of Earth 2 and Grant Morrison, DC hasn't really tried at all to make these characters any bigger outside of those respective storylines.

[Ascended]

Oh I have and will never state that this was entirely on DC. To place the blame entirely on DC would be completely inaccurate due to the DC fanbase being so resistant to diversity to begin with, But to ignore all the issues that has happened with DC's attempt at diversity would also be asinine.

We're on the same page here. DC has made many missteps here. I'm just saying, they've done their part and provided the product and some of it was very much worth buying. Some of it wasn't worth buying, but there were books that were quality. DC gave us what we said we wanted, with the quality behind it we demanded (in some of the titles), and the fans didn't step up.

- DC's New 52 and DCYou was filled with fantastic creative ideas, but was plagued with many failed executions. So let's not pretend that DC was knocking it out the park when it came to good writing books. There were good books for sure, but there were definitely some bad books as well.

True, but beside the point. A lot of the New52 books were pretty bad, the continuity was a mess across the board, a lot of the well done books (like Morrison's Action) were divisive. The New52 was successful, but it was a messy, ugly success. And Rebirth isn't any better. And as you correctly say, when it comes to representation Rebirth is far worse. I've never said otherwise.

And yet when news came out of a possible Crisis coming out, people were shocked. They shouldn't be,

DC told us in 2016 there was a new Crisis on the horizon, with the Rebirth Special. No one should have been surprised by that announcement. That anyone was, is simply one more reason to never listen to the fans.

just like anything else, the comic book market is crashing.

Well, its far from healthy, but I don't actually think this is true anymore. We've mostly seen overall gains the last several years. A couple years that dipped, but for the most part I think the market's been growing (anyone got current data on that? I'm too lazy to open comichron right now). Personally, I suspect this is the established audience spending more on comics as the economy continues to improve, and not so much new fans coming in, but I have no evidence either way. It seems the new fans are coming in largely through digital and trades. And more hobby shops are reportedly opening these days than we used to see at the turn of the century. So we're far from out of the woods, and print as a whole is suffocating and dying and the entire direct market distribution model and schedule and.....just everything....needs to adapt, but we're not quite plummeting to disaster in a burning fireball of hellfire anymore. Now we seem to be leveling off and trailing a lot of smoke while oxygen masks hang from the ceiling. So, you know, we're all gonna die....just not as soon as we might've.

- Even more so, Marvel has proven it can be done[/QUOTE]

Of course it can (and has) be done. I dont think anyone is discounting that. But your argument here is basically that DC should have tried harder. And I'm not saying your wrong. At the least, they should have been (and be) smarter. But that's also kinda a thin argument. "Trying harder" isn't great advice. And just because Marvel did it, doesn't mean DC can copy it exactly and get the same result. Again, DC is Coke, and Marvel is Pepsi. Audience expectation is different, there's the "originality" factor, brand loyalty and trust...stuff I haven't considered and/or don't know because I don't work in the print industry and I'm still just a business student....it's not as simple as saying "these guys did it this way, so we'll do it the same way and replicate the result." That works in a science lab, but I doubt it works here.

[Agent Z]

Calvin Ellis in a multiversal Superman film would rock. The Steels are cool as well and are capable of holding their own show of film. Val Zod on the other hand was a bore fest in a terrible franchise and I never understood why they called him Zod seeing as he had no relation nor interaction with actual Zod character.
Oh and lets stop comparing every new Black character with Miles. John Henry existed before Miles and held his own solo and starred in major stories such as 52 and the Reign of the Supermen + Return of Superman before Miles and Val were ever thought of. Batwing also had a book before Miles, the only difference is that Miles had a creator with a lot of clout who kept him going. Miles real test begins now.

Well Miles is on his third solo series and is getting his own animated film.

[Killerbee911]

I wasn't directly accussing you, its just something that keeps coming up everytime Black characters are talked about.

Well then where is Val Zod now?

I have no real knowledge of Miles as I've never been a major Spider-Man reader but the things you keep saying about him makes me wonder if there's anything actually original about him other than being a race bent Peter named Miles.

I am making it simple If you watch Spiderman Homecoming I would say 55 to 75% is Miles. That is right Miles Morales is that good of character that original is clearly ripping off of things from him. Yes they are original things about him

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think the main difference between Calvin Ellis and Val-Zod is that one of these characters has appeared in comics that sold well and were received well by critics and readers, whereas the other one....didn't.

[Frontier]

This makes me wish Steel had a book, to be honest.

I am making it simple If you watch Spiderman Homecoming I would say 55 to 75% is Miles. That is right Miles Morales is that good of character that original is clearly ripping off of things from him. Yes they are original things about him

I think the issue was that Miles was the teen Spider-Man on the Avengers and who got thrown into the Avengers/shared universe, which is what they wanted from MCU Spidey, so that's why they altered Peter's character and situation.

[marhawkman]

I love the concept of a Multiversal Superman.

That's probably the best way to use the character. Maybe write it as a world where Vathlo island survived Krypton's destruction instead of Kandor? Or maybe just change the population distribution of Kryptonian skin colors? Either works really. One is more of an elseworld, and the other a fundamentally different universe.

[Ascended]

This makes me wish Steel had a book, to be honest.

I think the issue was that Miles was the teen Spider-Man on the Avengers and who got thrown into the Avengers/shared universe, which is what they wanted from MCU Spidey, so that's why they altered Peter's character and situation.

I have missed Steel's book since it ended twenty (??) years ago.

And the MCU has always pulled a lot from the Ultimate line, so it's not surprising the MCU Parker has a lot of Miles Morales in him. I often wish they had just used Miles in the first place. Of course, I like Miles more than Parker so I have a huge bias.

[leo619]

Well, its far from healthy, but I don't actually think this is true anymore. We've mostly seen overall gains the last several years. A couple years that dipped, but for the most part I think the market's been growing (anyone got current data on that? I'm too lazy to open comichron right now). Personally, I suspect this is the established audience spending more on comics as the economy continues to improve, and not so much new fans coming in, but I have no evidence either way. It seems the new fans are coming in largely through digital and trades. And more hobby shops are reportedly opening these days than we used to see at the turn of the century. So we're far from out of the woods, and print as a whole is suffocating and dying and the entire direct market distribution model and schedule and.....just everything....needs to adapt, but we're not quite plummeting to disaster in a burning fireball of hellfire anymore. Now we seem to be leveling off and trailing a lot of smoke while oxygen masks hang from the ceiling. So, you know, we're all gonna die....just not as soon as we might've.

Not according to comichron. Again, I place the blame of this false safety net on the classic media push to "Rebirth being the thing that saved DC." But looking at the numbers, this is far from the case. For example, comparing July 2018, which is around 2 years from Rebirth, and you compare it to 2 years from new 52 in July 2013, you will see that New 52 and the comic book industry were doing better during that time in comparison to currently.



July 2013:


COMICS UNIT SALES

The Top 300 Comics sold
7.32 million copies

(+6% vs. same month previous year)
(+2% vs. same month 5 years earlier)
(+15% vs. same month 10 years earlier)
(+1% vs. same month 15 years earlier)

Category to date for year:
49.02 million copies
(+8% vs. previous year)

All comics sold by Diamond (in units)
8.03 million copies
(+11% vs. same month previous year)

Year to date
53 million copies
(+10% vs. previous year)


http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...3/2013-07.html





July 2018:


COMICS UNIT SALES

The Top 300 Comics sold
6.93 million copies

(+11% vs. same month previous year)
(-5% vs. same month 5 years earlier)
(-4% vs. same month 10 years earlier)
(+9% vs. same month 15 years earlier)
(-4% vs. same month 20 years earlier)

Category to date for year:
45.01 million copies
(-4% vs. previous year)

The Top 500 Comics Sold
7.34 million copies


All comics sold by Diamond (in units)
7.68 million copies
(+10% vs. same month previous year)

Year to date
49.32 million copies
(-7% vs. previous year)


http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-07.html





Now to clarify, I'm specifically referring to the floppy print market. The problem is that the floppy print market is the defacto consideration for the big 2 regarding series being successful. So if we're talking about that are specifically, no the market has not grown, it ranges between stagnant and shrinking over time. But the numbers are definitely indicating that the market is indeed shrinking just like it has done before when they did reboots before.



- Even more so, Marvel has proven it can be done[/QUOTE]

Of course it can (and has) be done. I dont think anyone is discounting that. But your argument here is basically that DC should have tried harder. And I'm not saying your wrong. At the least, they should have been (and be) smarter. But that's also kinda a thin argument. "Trying harder" isn't great advice. And just because Marvel did it, doesn't mean DC can copy it exactly and get the same result. Again, DC is Coke, and Marvel is Pepsi. Audience expectation is different, there's the "originality" factor, brand loyalty and trust...stuff I haven't considered and/or don't know because I don't work in the print industry and I'm still just a business student....it's not as simple as saying "these guys did it this way, so we'll do it the same way and replicate the result." That works in a science lab, but I doubt it works here.

Oh I'm definitely not saying it's as easy as copying the same method as Marvel, because I do believe DC's fanbase is more resistant to diversity than Marvel's counterpart.
However, to state they cannot do much because they are the "coke" to marvel's "pepsi" is also a very thin argument because unlike coke and pepsi who has tens if not hundreds of millions of people drinking each product, marvel and dc both have barely a few hundred thousand picking up their floppy. You're talking about 0.001% of the clientele of their soda counterparts. As such, their ability to grow is substantially less because unlike soda which is mainstream, comics is a extremely niche product where people have to go to specific stores just to buy one.

Hence why neither Coke nor Pepsi has to worry about keeping the lights on in their division, which cannot be said for print comic books. So yes, the current DC demographic is most likely resistant to allowing such changes to happen, but DC's chances to either add to the fanbase or replace it entirely is much greater due to the limited amount of people that pick up their books versus the amount of people that "CAN" pick up their produce.

With that said, "Try Harder" doesn't just mean keep doing the same thing over again. Try Harder is a generic term for putting the same level of effort that Marvel did with their characters, which they did not. Miles Morales was given a top quality writer, a top quality artist and was given mainstream media attention. Riri Williams was given a top quality writer, top quality artist, and a partnership with MIT to expand her name specifically with that community. I can go on and on about the multitude of effort Marvel has done to find audiences for these books, from Moon Girl and their partnership with Scholastic to Gwen Stacy push being almost as wide spread as Miles Morales himself. So "Try Harder" is far from a thin argument, it means just that, put in the same level of effort that marvel has done to give their characters success vs many of the half a** attempts they currently perform, and there is a much better chance for success.

[Ascended]

Oh I'm definitely not saying it's as easy as copying the same method as Marvel, because I do believe DC's fanbase is more resistant to diversity than Marvel's counterpart.
However, to state they cannot do much because they are the "coke" to marvel's "pepsi" is also a very thin argument because unlike coke and pepsi who has tens if not hundreds of millions of people drinking each product, marvel and dc both have barely a few hundred thousand picking up their floppy.

That's not really the point I was making. Yeah, the markets are totally different and there are different stresses on both industries, but what I was saying is that DC is the publisher people go to for the comfortable, classic IP's that have existed longer than their grandparents. Batman, the League, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. That seems to be what people want to see when they buy DC. With Marvel, there seems to be a little more openness to new properties, but Marvel isn't exactly welcoming either (for all the praise Miles gets now, he was terribly divisive back in the day, and didn't Loeb get death threats over Sam Alexander?). And while Marvel had a few good years pushing new legacies and characters, it seems they're pulling back to the classic names as well now.

[leo619]

I think the main difference between Calvin Ellis and Val-Zod is that one of these characters has appeared in comics that sold well and were received well by critics and readers, whereas the other one....didn't.

Again not true, The Earth 2 series was well received by critics, readers AND sold well.

And to stop these lies from spreading, here are the numbers.


Here is what Earth 2 was selling back on issue when Val Zod defeated Bizarro:


50 75 Earth 2 26 $2.99 DC 37,396


http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...4/2014-08.html



Now let's compare that to other franchise in the same list:



52 76 Flash 34 $2.99 DC 37,109


57 49 X-Men 18 $3.99 Marvel 35,543


59 51 Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-Man 4 $3.99 Marvel 34,836


65 85 Aquaman 34 $2.99 DC 33,380


71 64 Fantastic Four 8 $3.99 Marvel 30,674





That's right, Earth 2 selling against "classic franchises" like Fantastic Four, Xmen, Flash, Green Lantern Corps and More.


But hey, this go against the narrative that Earth 2 was a bad seller and horribly received. Aka, it was not.


Now, let's take a look at the ending sales of Earth 2 World End:



120 114 Earth 2 Worlds End 26 $3.99 DC 25,472


A full on 10k decrease. Back when taylor was writing the series, the sales were stable and people were enjoying it. Daniel Wilson takes the reigns of the series
and essentially destroyed it.



So if people are not interested in Val Zod as a character, that's their prerogative. But to state he was introduced into a series that was selling horribly is completely false. As Earth 2 was doing QUITE fine until Daniel Wilson took the reigns.

[leo619]

That's not really the point I was making. Yeah, the markets are totally different and there are different stresses on both industries, but what I was saying is that DC is the publisher people go to for the comfortable, classic IP's that have existed longer than their grandparents. Batman, the League, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. That seems to be what people want to see when they buy DC. With Marvel, there seems to be a little more openness to new properties, but Marvel isn't exactly welcoming either (for all the praise Miles gets now, he was terribly divisive back in the day, and didn't Loeb get death threats over Sam Alexander?). And while Marvel had a few good years pushing new legacies and characters, it seems they're pulling back to the classic names as well now.

Oh no doubt about it, but that's a common behavior seen in almost all geek fandom. From video games, to comic books, to star wars, etc, the fandom is normally very tied to "classic" characters while preventing new characters new life. DC is no different from other companies or markets in that regard. The only difference is that DC (and comics) always reverts back to the status quo to appease the little piece of pie they do have. But we have to be careful when we say "what the people want." Because "what the people want." really only reflects "what classic readers want who currently reads DC comics." And that's the difference from what you and I are saying.
You best believe there were plenty of people expecting to see Luke, Leia, and Han take the reigns for Star Wars before the force awaken came out. What did they do? Come out with completely new characters, new storylines, while bringing back legends to add that extra bit of nostaglia. What happened? They created the top 3 best selling movie in history. Why? Because they went after that markets that were normally untapped. (Same with Black Panther)

This is the power DC can tap IF they really pushed themselves to, so where the people who want to read DC won't ONLY be the people that read for classic characters, but those that want to see diverse properties such as what Marvel is currently doing. But that means they will have to make waves with those who are resistant to change, just like the forums for star wars was filled with people saying their can't be a black storm trooper, who how comic book resources themselves was filled with racist posters after Marvel revealed Miles Morales in the mainstream media. There will be growing pains and those resistant to change, but with Marvel and Star Wars pushed, they were rewarded. It's time for DC to do the same, or they will risk falling under like they currently are.

[Thor-Ul]

About time to resurrect this thread with good news, even if it is brief:

SUPERMAN RED AND BLUE #2
written by CHUCK BROWN, ROBERT VENDITTI, STEPHANIE PHILLIPS, DAN PANOSIAN, and JASON HOWARD
art by DENYS COWAN, ALITHA MARTINEZ, DAN PANOSIAN, JASON HOWARD, and others
cover by NICOLA SCOTT
variant cover by BRIAN BOLLAND
variant cover by DAVID CHOE
PRESTIGE FORMAT | ON SALE 4/20/21
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | 2 OF 6 | FC | DC
Explore the world of Superman in a way you’ve never seen before. Five brand-new stories, a visual tour de force, with only the Man of Steel’s signature colors. There are tales starring Clark Kent, the original Superman, including a showdown with his most tenacious foe, Lex Luthor—but there is also a great space adventure with Val-Zod, the Superman of Earth-2, going up against an amped-up version of Prometheus. And then there is Cyborg Superman, a warped reflection of the real deal, with a mission as opposite to Superman’s as any could be. But no matter how out there the situation gets, it always comes back to the one man and the planet he loves and has sworn to protect—and the people he inspires, young and old.

[Superboy-Prime]

Did Val-Zod ever get an Earth name? I imagine he couldn't get a job with a name like that.