Storm >>> APPRECIATION <<<

[rutog98]

I fail to see your point...



If Jeen can mop the floor with the Imperial Guard solo -- one herald shouldn't be that much of a problem.

The Imperial Guard is weak against telepathy. They have always been going back to CC's first run. I can see why Jeen could beat them especially when their only defense against telepathy is Oracle, who has absolutely no feats whatsoever and is constantly getting whipped in telepathic psi-battles against the X-Men. Unless Terrax is also weak against telepathy, he mops the floor with Jeen rather easily. Without the Phoenix Force, neither Jean or Jeen can begin to compare with Ororo. If Guggenheim gives Storm her due and lets her beat out Terrax, that is Storm who gets that feather in her cap. Jeen does not benefit from Storm's feats.

[ZNOP]

The Imperial Guard is weak against telepathy. They have always been going back to CC's first run. I can see why Jeen could beat them especially when their only defense against telepathy is Oracle, who has absolutely no feats whatsoever and is constantly getting whipped in telepathic psi-battles against the X-Men. Unless Terrax is also weak against telepathy, he mops the floor with Jeen rather easily. Without the Phoenix Force, neither Jean or Jeen can begin to compare with Ororo. If Guggenheim gives Storm her due and lets her beat out Terrax, that is Storm who gets that feather in her cap. Jeen does not benefit from Storm's feats.

Read said issue again -- Jeen wasn't using telepathy when she went head on with Gladiator.

[stormphoenix]

The Imperial Guard is weak against telepathy. They have always been going back to CC's first run. I can see why Jeen could beat them especially when their only defense against telepathy is Oracle, who has absolutely no feats whatsoever and is constantly getting whipped in telepathic psi-battles against the X-Men. Unless Terrax is also weak against telepathy, he mops the floor with Jeen rather easily. Without the Phoenix Force, neither Jean or Jeen can begin to compare with Ororo. If Guggenheim gives Storm her due and lets her beat out Terrax, that is Storm who gets that feather in her cap. Jeen does not benefit from Storm's feats.

Jean used TK to beat Gladiator. Jeans TK powers are incredible strong to counter that you have to have an existing outside power to make jean work Over time.

[rutog98]

Read said issue again -- Jeen wasn't using telepathy when she went head on with Gladiator.

Jean used TK to beat Gladiator. Jeans TK powers are incredible strong to counter that you have to have an existing outside power to make jean work Over time.

Given that Gladiator has literally smashed planets with a single punch on panel, this is a low end showing of him. He has been written down to where both Deathbird and Colossus could go toe-to-toe with him. Heck, even Cannonball beat him before. So, now, he was weakened to prop up Jeen. The reason it is okay for Storm to beat Terrax, but the Jeen/Gladiator instance is PIS is because CC intended for Storm and Phoenix Force Jean Grey to be equal in power from the start. From the very beginning, he had Storm pulling feats like throwing attacks backed by the full power of a star (when Phoenix Force Jean Grey battled Firelord, she beat him by throwing a weaker attack that was backed by the power of a star. This is weaker than Ororo who threw an attack backed by the FULL power of a star). I should go on to note that prior to Phoenix Force Jean Grey hitting Firelord with her attack backed by the power of a star, she threw a Thor-level attack at Firelord. While this weaker Thor-level attack certainly hurt him, he was able to keep coming at Jean, so she had to resort to a blast backed by the power of a star. So, to put it in a nutshell: Thor's attacks against Firelord (weaker than/less than)>>>>>Phoenix Force Jean's attack which beat Firelord (weaker than/less than)>>>>>STORM!

Furthermore, we have seen Storm summon winds strong enough to redirect the full power of a mutant who was established in that same issue to have the power to split the Earth like a ripe melon. Also, in that issue, the mutant whose full power Storm redirected, Sienna Blaze, was stated to have an energy signature or something like that similar to the Phoenix Force. In other words, its no surprise that Storm can amp up her winds to hurt a character like Terrax. Heck, she was even able to amplify the power of the winds to hurt a weakened Dark Phoenix not to mention how she was able to de-atomize a herald of Galactus with her control over subatomic particles. We have seen Storm sew a reality back together, wield the full power of a galactic core, wield near-infinite power without the aid of a cosmic tweetie bird, but all on her own power, and I still have not said it all. Therefore, while she usually holds back and uses only a tiny fraction of her power, Storm can put the hurt on pretty much any character a writer wants her to fight, cosmic or otherwise, and it would not be PIS. She has the resume of raw powered feats to hurt anyone a writer wants her to hurt. Jeen does not have this, ergo, Gladiator was written down for her just like he was written down for Cannonball, Colossus, and Deathbird.

All of that said, Jeen can beat Firelord realistically with her TP since he is vulnerable to telepathic attacks. However, without the Phoenix Force boosting her powers, there is no way her TK can handle him without PIS being used to weaken him or some other plot device being employed to lower his self confidence (remember, his strength and invulnerability is limited by his confidence).

[butterflykyss]

Given that Gladiator has literally smashed planets with a single punch on panel, this is a low end showing of him. He has been written down to where both Deathbird and Colossus could go toe-to-toe with him. Heck, even Cannonball beat him before. So, now, he was weakened to prop up Jeen. The reason it is okay for Storm to beat Terrax, but the Jeen/Gladiator instance is PIS is because CC intended for Storm and Phoenix Force Jean Grey to be equal in power from the start. From the very beginning, he had Storm pulling feats like throwing attacks backed by the full power of a star (when Phoenix Force Jean Grey battled Firelord, she beat him by throwing a weaker attack that was backed by the power of a star. This is weaker than Ororo who threw an attack backed by the FULL power of a star). I should go on to note that prior to Phoenix Force Jean Grey hitting Firelord with her attack backed by the power of a star, she threw a Thor-level attack at Firelord. While this weaker Thor-level attack certainly hurt him, he was able to keep coming at Jean, so she had to resort to a blast backed by the power of a star. So, to put it in a nutshell: Thor's attacks against Firelord (weaker than/less than)>>>>>Phoenix Force Jean's attack which beat Firelord (weaker than/less than)>>>>>STORM!

Furthermore, we have seen Storm summon winds strong enough to redirect the full power of a mutant who was established in that same issue to have the power to split the Earth like a ripe melon. Also, in that issue, the mutant whose full power Storm redirected, Sienna Blaze, was stated to have an energy signature or something like that similar to the Phoenix Force. In other words, its no surprise that Storm can amp up her winds to hurt a character like Terrax. Heck, she was even able to amplify the power of the winds to hurt a weakened Dark Phoenix not to mention how she was able to de-atomize a herald of Galactus with her control over subatomic particles. We have seen Storm sew a reality back together, wield the full power of a galactic core, wield near-infinite power without the aid of a cosmic tweetie bird, but all on her own power, and I still have not said it all. Therefore, while she usually holds back and uses only a tiny fraction of her power, Storm can put the hurt on pretty much any character a writer wants her to fight, cosmic or otherwise, and it would not be PIS. She has the resume of raw powered feats to hurt anyone a writer wants her to hurt. Jeen does not have this, ergo, Gladiator was written down for her just like he was written down for Cannonball, Colossus, and Deathbird.

All of that said, Jeen can beat Firelord realistically with her TP since he is vulnerable to telepathic attacks. However, without the Phoenix Force boosting her powers, there is no way her TK can handle him without PIS being used to weaken him or some other plot device being employed to lower his self confidence (remember, his strength and invulnerability is limited by his confidence).

Can the same thing be said to counter feats that Storm is not believed to win? I mean there are some who are arguing that, based on taking the scans of Terrax at face value, he is written down to prop up Storm. I get you are saying she was originally written with the intent of being near or at Phoenix-level but I think people would make the same argument as you are against Jeen.

[rutog98]

Can the same thing be said to counter feats that Storm is not believed to win? I mean there are some who are arguing that, based on taking the scans of Terrax at face value, he is written down to prop up Storm. I get you are saying she was originally written with the intent of being near or at Phoenix-level but I think people would make the same argument as you are against Jeen.

They do try and make this same argument against Storm. Take a look at the X-Men Gold thread where you and I just got through debating that Storm naysayer poster. Thing is, in Storm's case, there are certain feats she was given which leaves no argument for another character being devalued to prop her up. She threw an attack backed by the full power of a star. No argument can be made here that another character was written down for her to pull this feat. She wielded the power of a galactic core. Again, no argument can be made that another character was written down for her to pull this feat. She sewed together a reality that was coming apart at its seams. Again, no argument can be made that another character was written down for her to pull this feat. All of this establishes her power levels. Also, in the story where she beat the Trion, their power was established to be nigh-omnipotent. They were the sum of all matter/life/energy for that entire reality's past, present, and future. This was established in the same issue where Storm bested them. On top of this, we have an interview from one of the creators that said Storm was equal to Phoenix Force Jean Grey in power. Her blowing up a herald of Galactus, hurting Silver Surfer, etc is all just confirmation of what was already blatantly stated by a writer from his own mouth in an interview. This was established with the character from the start to boot.

On top of all of this, her powers have been established from very early on to be limited by the strength of her will and body plus her powerset is to perceive the universe as patterns of energy and forces she can bend to her will. She can even replicate the way energies work with each other simply by observing their natural behavior. I mean, there's nothing left to say. Marvel can have this lady fight anyone she pleases and it would not be PIS.

[RLAAMJR.]

I fail to see your point...



If Jeen can mop the floor with the Imperial Guard solo -- one herald shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Storm has shown great and powerful feats, just enough to beat Terrax. I have a question for you, when it is stated that they dont breathe do you really believe that they dont breathe or they just can breathe in space?

Or maybe the right question is do heralds breathe in space or not?

i am asking this because since they are cosmic characters, they dont breathe oxygen but rathe a different elemnt that is omnipresent in space,

[butterflykyss]

They do try and make this same argument against Storm. Take a look at the X-Men Gold thread where you and I just got through debating that Storm naysayer poster. Thing is, in Storm's case, there are certain feats she was given which leaves no argument for another character being devalued to prop her up. She threw an attack backed by the full power of a star. No argument can be made here that another character was written down for her to pull this feat. She wielded the power of a galactic core. Again, no argument can be made that another character was written down for her to pull this feat. She sewed together a reality that was coming apart at its seams. Again, no argument can be made that another character was written down for her to pull this feat. All of this establishes her power levels. Also, in the story where she beat the Trion, their power was established to be nigh-omnipotent. They were the sum of all matter/life/energy for that entire reality's past, present, and future. This was established in the same issue where Storm bested them. On top of this, we have an interview from one of the creators that said Storm was equal to Phoenix Force Jean Grey in power. Her blowing up a herald of Galactus, hurting Silver Surfer, etc is all just confirmation of what was already blatantly stated by a writer from his own mouth in an interview. This was established with the character from the start to boot.

On top of all of this, her powers have been established from very early on to be limited by the strength of her will and body plus her powerset is to perceive the universe as patterns of energy and forces she can bend to her will. She can even replicate the way energies work with each other simply by observing their natural behavior. I mean, there's nothing left to say. Marvel can have this lady fight anyone she pleases and it would not be PIS.

i agree with this. i guess my question is what about Jeen makes this PIS. Is the the fact she hasn't merged with Phoenix yet and she still never received the power bump that Claremont intended since they were taken from their timeline?

[ZNOP]

Storm has shown great and powerful feats, just enough to beat Terrax. I have a question for you, when it is stated that they dont breathe do you really believe that they dont breathe or they just can breathe in space?

Or maybe the right question is do heralds breathe in space or not?

i am asking this because since they are cosmic characters, they dont breathe oxygen but rathe a different elemnt that is omnipresent in space,

Heralds don't need to breathe (or eat) in space -- they are powered by cosmic energy.

[Wind Rider]

I think we should wait and see if this is even what we think it is. The X-Men superheroing could be the reason they are fighting Terrax, which is awesome if thats the case. I still think herald level is a little too high on the food chain for Storm to flat out beat, but is likely and consistent that she can at least effect if not harm a herald.

[butterflykyss]

I think we should wait and see if this is even what we think it is. The X-Men superheroing could be the reason they are fighting Terrax, which is awesome if thats the case. I still think herald level is a little too high on the food chain for Storm to flat out beat, but is likely and consistent that she can at least effect if not harm a herald.

agreed. I think sp said this could even be a a Danger Room sequence so time will tell.

[rutog98]

i agree with this. i guess my question is what about Jeen makes this PIS. Is the the fact she hasn't merged with Phoenix yet and she still never received the power bump that Claremont intended since they were taken from their timeline?

I'll parallel what I said about the Jeen/Gladiator, Cannonball/Gladiator, Colossus/Gladiator, and Deathbird/Gladiator situation with the PIS characters get when they fought Magneto in his villain days. Sometimes, Magneto was pitted against foes that could beat him badly if they weren't victimized with PIS in order to give him the win. I have debated against Magneto fans and have gone to great lengths in tons of "Magneto vs." debates to highlight this phenomena. What happens in those cases is when said heroes (like Storm, Phoenix Force Jean Grey, Thor, etc) are pitted against him, their power levels are blatantly adjusted downward in order to prop him up and give him the win. In other stories, however, such heroes will display power levels far above anything Magneto has done which exposes the PIS used to tilt the fight in his favor in the stories where he beat them. This is what happened in the cases of Jeen vs. Gladiator, Colossus vs. Gladiator, Cannonball vs. Gladiator, etc. If the issue had established that Gladiator was doubting himself while in battle with Jeen which weakened him enough for Jeen's TK to overcome him, then that would be acceptable since Gladiator's self-confidence is a limiting factor on his super strength and invulnerability. Another way Jeen could beat him telekinetically would be if she were possessed by the Phoenix Force which would have boosted her powers to where such a feat would have been credible without devaluing Gladiator at all. However, the way this the story presented Jeen's win, Gladiator was clearly not written anywhere near full capacity for her to defeat him telekinetically. I make this claim because given his feats in other stories, his physical strength is WAY beyond the scope of her TK powers to handle physically. That said, I would like to emphasize that she could have beaten him telepathically easily without any PIS, or if the writer wanted her to beat him telekinetically, he could have been creative with her powers have Jeen use her telepathy to mess with his mind to weaken his confidence which would lower his strength and invulnerablity to where she could best him physically with her TK attacks.

So, again, either Jeen or Jean *can* beat Gladiator without any PIS in the ways I have prescribed, but not in the way the fight was presented in the actual story. It was sloppy writing that devalued Gladiator which is the definition of PIS.

I hope this explanation is clear. If anybody finds what I said unclear, please ask me to clarify further...

[rutog98]

One thing for sure, there is no doubt in my mind that Storm has demonstrated the raw power to beat a Herald of Galactus. The reason it would be hard to actually argue that is while Storm has demonstrated higher power levels than a Herald (when written at her best), the various applications of those abilities has yet to be fleshed out. The heralds have less power than Storm when portrayed at her best, but they have been given tons of different applications for the power levels they have. The most obvious example I can think of is a speed blitz (but then, I would argue that Storm *may* be able to hit faster than their speed blitz since she can work her powers with less than a conscious thought. That is such an open ended speed that a writer can have Storm's powers work at any speed they want for the sake of the story. Its called Storm having a plot device power that can literally do whatever is the whim of the writer and still not be PIS. Gotta love it!) I would argue that Storm could move faster than a Herald if a writer wanted her to shape the massive cosmic energies she wields in such a fashion to produce great speed, but since we have not yet seen her apply her powers in that way, I cannot make such an argument and it remains a theory.

[stormphoenix]

I'm so tired of these Wonder Woman fans and these pretend to be Wonder Woman fans. I don't see why we are ignoring Storms feats here it's just so retarded. Clearly Storm winds are far more capable of knocking that Woman back. We have feats that prove otherwise.

[RLAAMJR.]

Can the same thing be said to counter feats that Storm is not believed to win? I mean there are some who are arguing that, based on taking the scans of Terrax at face value, he is written down to prop up Storm. I get you are saying she was originally written with the intent of being near or at Phoenix-level but I think people would make the same argument as you are against Jeen.

We have a lot of great feats in the past that will back her up why she could beat Terrax.