Storm >>> APPRECIATION <<<

[sugarfree]

The Chaos Wave did not have extreme heat, or cold, or concussive force. All it did was disrupt probability fields. Its like saying withstanding a hexbolt from Wanda is the same as withstanding a lightning bolt from Ororo. They are apples and oranges, thus are too different to compare.

That said, with the Chaos Wave being what it is, its probably only lucky chance that Meggan was able to survive as Wanda's hex powers tend to be erratic in the way it behaves. (Everybody thought she had died and she was in a version of Hell meaning she really did kinda die). Wanda's powers are wacky and can have various affects. Heck, the Chaos Wave didn't even have enough force to punch through barries between realities, something Trion Juggernaut could do with no problem. So, again, the Chaos Wave did not have a lot of concussive force nor did it electrocute you, or freeze, you, etc. That said, Meggan can be hurt by things like cold and brute force.

I need your opinion on the the second paragraph I wrote. About Storm's potential to control sentient elemental forms.

[Sin Nick]

Didn't Mojo also described Storm's will as indomitable?

Pretty much every character at one point or another had their will described as "indomitable". Will power is one of those things pretty hard to gauge when it comes to comics or fictional characters.

[butterflykyss]

In this case, it's more of the same, because it shows Meggan's potential durability against attacks. Chaos Wave is unquestionably more powerful than any elemental attack. That's not even a debate, I mean...



Also, I still need you guys opinion if Storm can have some degree of control over Iceman in his ice form. If he can evaporate Hydroman and control Voght, what about Iceman? Or at least, his sentient ice constructs.

I don't think Storm can control his sentient ice constructs in the way iceman does but she should most definitely be able to control the phase changes of the constructs and potentially even iceman.

[rutog98]

No it's not. The debate centers on will and Jean being one with herself and fully confident can have an audience with Eternity and have a conversation with it without going insane. Ororo could house it, It came through Jean and she talked to it.

Now it's more than percervering through pain, she is piecing together the scattered mind of the professor catching his soul and holding it. You have this tendency to write down feats that show how strong she is. Wolverine couldn't even handle the mental trauma he had and needed the professor to deal with. Jean handles more trauma having gained the pain of her Phoenix self and Maddie with no side effects. That's her will something only the gawdess could duplicate.

1) Jean's feats with the Phoenix Force possessing her do not count. The Eternity thing is irrelevant to this whole discussion.

2) When Jean persevered through that pain with the Xavier thing, she had two things augmenting her powers: The Phoenix Force AND Cerebra. I am not writing down her feats, I am merely telling it like it is. Why do you ignore basic facts like when she was trying to keep track of the scattered mind of Xavier she had the Phoenix Force PLUS the added boost of Cerebra helping her? You do realize that Cerebra boosted one's power by a factor of 10 or something like that, right? That's not even including the boost she had via the Phoenix Force. Given that she had the Phoenix Force plus Cerebra, that feat should have been easy for her despite the pain. Bringing this up actually hurts your position.

3) Jean did not handle that trauma of having the Phoenix Force and Maddie in her with no side effects. Sometimes, she was overwhelmed by one of the other two psyches and they would take over. Anyway, her feat with trying to hold the psyches of Phoenix and Maddie is nothing compared to Rogue who has to deal with far more personalities in her mind than that. On top of it, Rogue's willpower is constantly stated to be less than Ororo's. So, once more, you overestimate Jean Grey BIG TIME!

[rutog98]

Pretty much every character at one point or another had their will described as "indomitable". Will power is one of those things pretty hard to gauge when it comes to comics or fictional characters.

No, it is not. It has been repeatedly stated that Storm's willpower was stronger than any other X-Man's. Shadow King, Warskrull, and Mojo have all acknowledged this about Ororo's willpower.

[butterflykyss]

Pretty much every character at one point or another had their will described as "indomitable". Will power is one of those things pretty hard to gauge when it comes to comics or fictional characters.

but rut has done a pretty good job of showing how each characters measures up against the other using the scans he provided from 616. the nanny one is a great example. storm was the only one she had to revert to a child due to will power. also, let's not forget professor Xavier, psylocke, and Oracle combined power could not overcome her will power as well. there is more than enough establishes canon for storm at least that demonstrates she is stronger than some of the other characters mentioned.

[rutog98]

I need your opinion on the the second paragraph I wrote. About Storm's potential to control sentient elemental forms.

Well, we have seen Ororo control the elemental forms of Hydro Man and Amelia Voght. Also, when she faced Stardust, a Herald of Galactus who is composed of cosmic energy, she was able to steal electrons from Stardust's body and send them flying back with enough force to atomize the Herald of Galactus.

[rutog98]

Yes, he did.

Alos, In Uncanny 150, Magneto's willpower was stated to be second to nobody's: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/iwcxJfumk_v...vylM34YB=s1600

However, by 1986, Ororo's will was stated to have surpassed his. When Magneto was on the X-Men, Storm's will was stated to be the strongest of everyone's on the team.

Now, here is Jean and Xavier together against Magneto's willpower:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/F6SBRf5hkfS...8mfqA2dx=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/7oC1VROEpvP...sEfdnhBI=s1600

In these scans, most of Xavier's mental powers were spent operating that suit he was using to walk in, but Jean had her full power. Notice how it took the full power of Jean PLUS what remained of Xavier's powers that was not spent to operate that suit to get through Magneto's defenses. And then, on top of that, they could only break through his defenses AFTER Gambit threw exploding cards in Magneto's face distracting him from focusing on his mental defenses. So, yeah, Jean, while powerful and strong-willed, is nowhere near Storm's willpower.

Moving on...

Here, Nanny states that she had to regress Storm to childhood because her will was too strong as an adult:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/CLag1t1LwWq...0PpU6NMs=s1600

Even when in this regressed state where her will is not as indomitable as her adult self, she still proves to be more than a match for the Shadow King:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ttG9ECvDL8t...jz2OXP8a=s1600

Notice that when an ADULT Magneto fought the Shadow King, while he came out victorious, the fight had cost him dearly:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/3TiXF_Se3nJ...-4HQBIqD=s1600

He said he was plauged by a "sick shame at the awful cost of his surival" after his bout with Shadow King. Kid Storm, whose willpower was less than Adult Storm, bested Shadow King with less effort than Adult Magneto. That just goes to show how strong Ororo's willpower must be!

Jean Grey's willpower, while strong, is nothing compared to Ororo's.

Oh, and I wanted to add to this post:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/qm36io6pBxv...HRRZOw82=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/DxdE1u3NrNW...WOMdMt30=s1600

Notice how Storm's willpower was stated to be the strongest of the X-Men. The roster included Magneto, Wolverine, and Rogue. I threw in Rogue because of Chaos's claim of how Jean had to STRUGGLE with holding a measily two other psyche's in her mind puts her on a par with Ororo when Rogue, who is weaker-willed than Ororo, has had to deal with far more than that. Keep this in mind when you guys read about Magneto's will in the post I am quoting myself on above.

[rutog98]

One more thing, you guys: Storm's willpower/mental defenses were developed as an aspect of her character development. For instance, originally, she was no match for the White Queen:

Uncanny 129:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Xl_mDGinA3h...M0gnEyAo=s1600

And later, in Uncanny 131...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/SsTzCiDVQQd...9MC4YVwp=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/YVAlw66hm0I...9-a2Xrfg=s1600

Then we get to Uncanny 151:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/uYRpPQrxnhN...rri7xlC6=s1600

Notice in the Uncanny 151 scan the long flashback to Ororo's earlier encounters with the White Queen. Storm is scared of her and doesn't think she stands a chance against Emma.

Then, in Uncanny 152, we get Emma trying to kill Storm with a mindblast. Not only does Storm shrug it off, she handily beats Emma as her willpower has grown:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/MF2MTLoC_P1...c1R3IJwk=s1600

Note how she tells Emma in this scan that at one time she could not beat Emma's psychic assault, but that is no longer true. In other words, character growth on the part of Ororo.

So, again, Storm's willpower was developed as an aspect of her character development and it kept growing from there on a constant growth curve. You saw the scan from Uncanny 150 where it stated Magneto's willpower was second to none in his bout with Xavier and he stalemated Xavier's mind attack with his willpower. Then, you saw the later scan where Ororo's will was stated to be the strongest on the X-Men with Magneto there and present on the team showing that she had surpassed him. I also showed how Adult Magneto had a VERY hard time against Shadow King and narrowly came out of that fight while Kid Storm, whose will was less indomitable than her Adult Storm self, was able to defeat the Shadow King with less effort.

Do you guys now see why I get so angry when Jean is put on the team with Ororo how all of this development of Ororo's willpower is just swept under the rug so that every and any telepath can get into Ororo's head just to prop Jean up? Also, Storm's power levels are also scaled back when Jean is on the same team as she. This coupled with the constant redundant Jean stories about the Phoenix Force, kids from the future and alternate timelines, evil clones of the Summer/Grey family, Summer/Grey time traveling stories that have been recycled over and over again since the late 70s/80s is why I hate Jean's character and the entire Summer/Grey lineage.

Oh, and it doesn't stop there. Then we get the extra boosts to Ororo's mental defenses in X-Treme X-Men where she can now shape electricity to scramble telepathic assualts. So, she has that PLUS her indomitable will.

[Chaos Reigns]

1) Jean's feats with the Phoenix Force possessing her do not count. The Eternity thing is irrelevant to this whole discussion.

2) When Jean persevered through that pain with the Xavier thing, she had two things augmenting her powers: The Phoenix Force AND Cerebra. I am not writing down her feats, I am merely telling it like it is. Why do you ignore basic facts like when she was trying to keep track of the scattered mind of Xavier she had the Phoenix Force PLUS the added boost of Cerebra helping her? You do realize that Cerebra boosted one's power by a factor of 10 or something like that, right? That's not even including the boost she had via the Phoenix Force. Given that she had the Phoenix Force plus Cerebra, that feat should have been easy for her despite the pain. Bringing this up actually hurts your position.

3) Jean did not handle that trauma of having the Phoenix Force and Maddie in her with no side effects. Sometimes, she was overwhelmed by one of the other two psyches and they would take over. Anyway, her feat with trying to hold the psyches of Phoenix and Maddie is nothing compared to Rogue who has to deal with far more personalities in her mind than that. On top of it, Rogue's willpower is constantly stated to be less than Ororo's. So, once more, you overestimate Jean Grey BIG TIME!

Wrong. The Phoenix force wasn't part of that. It was all Jean. Go back and read the story. Jean was it, all of it. The Phoenix wasn't present. So now that that's established give Jean her due because her will power kept her sane and able to discuss evolution with eternity.

Rutog, there are plenty of scans that show Jean bypassing Magneto's defenses while wearing his helmet without the Phoenix force to plant illusions in his head. There are also at least 3 separate occasions where Jean went past Cain Markos' helmet and took him down while he was wearing it.

[RLAAMJR.]

Pretty much every character at one point or another had their will described as "indomitable". Will power is one of those things pretty hard to gauge when it comes to comics or fictional characters.

BUt I think Storm's indomitable will has been mentioned more than any other character,

[rutog98]

Wrong. The Phoenix force wasn't part of that. It was all Jean. Go back and read the story. Jean was it, all of it. The Phoenix wasn't present. So now that that's established give Jean her due because her will power kept her sane and able to discuss evolution with eternity.

The Phoenix Force very much was possessing Jean Grey, hence, when Jean confronted Emma earlier in an earlier issue, she told Emma, "Now its just you, me, and the Phoenix."
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/X2VhZ5Keoq1...dz-Tw9nE=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6Rmi1UMjPPu...b1hyonPR=s1600

[Chaos Reigns]

The Phoenix Force very much was possessing Jean Grey, hence, when Jean confronted Emma earlier in an earlier issue, she told Emma, "Now its just you, me, and the Phoenix."
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/X2VhZ5Keoq1...dz-Tw9nE=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6Rmi1UMjPPu...b1hyonPR=s1600

I am taking about the conversation with Eternity not the story with Morrison. Those scans I posted are from x-men forever not new X-men.

[butterflykyss]

I am taking about the conversation with Eternity not the story with Morrison. Those scans I posted are from x-men forever not new X-men.

I'm not sure as I've not read this issue but what I was able to find online it appears jean and Phoenix were one when this conversation happened:

[Chaos Reigns]

I'm not sure as I've not read this issue but what I was able to find online it appears jean and Phoenix were one when this conversation happened:

Yet Jean didn't use any Phoenix powers while fighting after that very conversation, not one so please try again.