Storm >>> APPRECIATION <<<

[rutog98]

Oh, and I just remembered another brought down for Storm to prop up Jean Grey.

There was a story where Gamesmaster mind-controlled all of Salem's population. Before doing so, he incapasitated Jean because he considered her a threat. He then proceeded to control the whole town's mind, including Ororo's. Anyway, Jean woke up from the trap and got ready to challenge Gamesmaster. Not sure he could win, he chose to flee rather than face her in psychic combat. It took his full power to mind control that town.

There is no way Gamesmaster should have been able to mind control Ororo, but this kind of Storm portrayal was par for the Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle era. I can't even recall a single issue during those years where Storm's willpower was even called "indomitable".

[Chaos Reigns]

That Morlock should not have been able to get into Ororo's head. She merely killed him before she collapsed from his attack. She did not beat back his psychic attack with her willpower.

That said, the reason I am upset about it is because Storm was weakened so that Jean could beat her, hence we get scenes like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ommbU--tLL...2/RCO023_w.jpg

Notice Jean threatening Storm with her telepathy to control her mind so that she, Jean, can accompany Ororo. If Ororo were written up to snuff, Jean would have never made that threat knowing that her TP would not mean squat to Storm. Ororo's willpower was scaled back to make Jean the toughest X-Man. Heck, even Kelly/Seagle stated in an interview that Jean could beat any X-Man one-on-one, including Ororo, due to her telepathy.

It could have been both and Storm could have fried her in a second had she tried. Kelley and Seagle didn't write that story and Storm was written as powerful enough to beat Candra, the same woman that possessed Cyclops and use him as a weapon. Storm let them come because deep down she might need them.

[Chaos Reigns]

Agreed. I wish Claremont had written more of Ororo/T'Challa because he's generally better at balanced relationships and he originated them anyway. In the UXM Annual where the FF and X-Men team up, he even has Ororo wonder if her relationship with T'Challa is akin to that of Reed/Sue and Scott/Jean.

What about the other half did you not agree with? The Scott part?

Just the prop up stuff. She was used to prop him up.

[JeanGreyForever]

Just the prop up stuff. She was used to prop him up.

I never really saw Jean as propping Scott up, but as you said, a balanced couple for the most part. Unless you meant the fake blonde, but I considered her to be a trophy for him to parade around with. A fitting fate if you ask me.

[rutog98]

It could have been both and Storm could have fried her in a second had she tried. Kelley and Seagle didn't write that story and Storm was written as powerful enough to beat Candra, the same woman that possessed Cyclops and use him as a weapon. Storm let them come because deep down she might need them.

Candra never attempted a TP attack on Ororo. It was always her TK against Ororo's elemental powers, and Storm won. Physically, Storm's powers did outdo Jean's in the 90s, but Ororo's powers were scaled back by Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle (no cosmic feats, they tried to say she could not alter weather over the continent of Antarctica saying it was too much ecosystem for her to alter eventhough she had surpassed that power in previous and future stories by other authors, tried to reduce her immunity to cold to a mere resistance, etc), and they made sure she could not overcome Jean's telepathy so that Jean was the Number 1 X-Man who could beat any of her teamates.

[Chaos Reigns]

That Morlock should not have been able to get into Ororo's head. She merely killed him before she collapsed from his attack. She did not beat back his psychic attack with her willpower.

That said, the reason I am upset about it is because Storm was weakened so that Jean could beat her, hence we get scenes like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ommbU--tLL...2/RCO023_w.jpg

Notice Jean threatening Storm with her telepathy to control her mind so that she, Jean, can accompany Ororo. If Ororo were written up to snuff, Jean would have never made that threat knowing that her TP would not mean squat to Storm. Ororo's willpower was scaled back to make Jean the toughest X-Man. Heck, even Kelly/Seagle stated in an interview that Jean could beat any X-Man one-on-one, including Ororo, due to her telepathy.

She survived it by her will power and she was in deadly combat at the time. She killed him quickly and then moved to shut down that fight ripping out Marrow's heart and saving dozens of people.

[Chaos Reigns]

I never really saw Jean as propping Scott up, but as you said, a balanced couple for the most part. Unless you meant the fake blonde, but I considered her to be a trophy for him to parade around with. A fitting fate if you ask me.

Ha, they both deserved each other. I do think toward the end they tried to use Jean to prop him up but when that didn't work they tried to use Scott to prop her up and when that didn't work she was killed off to give diamond Barbie her shot.

[JeanGreyForever]

Candra never attempted a TP attack on Ororo. It was always her TK against Ororo's elemental powers, and Storm won. Physically, Storm's powers did outdo Jean's in the 90s, but Ororo's powers were scaled back by Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle (no cosmic feats, they tried to say she could not alter weather over the continent of Antarctica saying it was too much ecosystem for her to alter eventhough she had surpassed that power in previous and future stories by other authors, tried to reduce her immunity to cold to a mere resistance, etc), and they made sure she could not overcome Jean's telepathy so that Jean was the Number 1 X-Man who could beat any of her teamates.

I love how you literally discredit even yourself by admitting that Storm's powers outdid Jean's in the 90s, but then continue by how Storm was so nerfed in a run that was also in the 90s.

[Chaos Reigns]

Candra never attempted a TP attack on Ororo. It was always her TK against Ororo's elemental powers, and Storm won. Physically, Storm's powers did outdo Jean's in the 90s, but Ororo's powers were scaled back by Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle (no cosmic feats, they tried to say she could not alter weather over the continent of Antarctica saying it was too much ecosystem for her to alter eventhough she had surpassed that power in previous and future stories by other authors, tried to reduce her immunity to cold to a mere resistance, etc), and they made sure she could not overcome Jean's telepathy so that Jean was the Number 1 X-Man who could beat any of her teamates.

I agree they were scaled back during that time. Remember when Kelley proposed a story that would have killed off Storm?

[JeanGreyForever]

Ha, they both deserved each other. I do think toward the end they tried to use Jean to prop him up but when that didn't work they tried to use Scott to prop her up and when that didn't work she was killed off to give diamond Barbie her shot.

Haha it's always a joy to meet a like-minded individual when it comes to that woman. I've made no secret of my distaste for Morrison's run and how OOC his Scott and Jean were so I'm not surprised at all about your opinion. I miss the days when the core X-Men were Scott, Jean, Ororo, and Logan. It's even more sad that Ororo is the only one of the four alive (at the moment anyway) but that hasn't elevated her position in the team at all.

[JeanGreyForever]

I agree they were scaled back during that time. Remember when Kelley proposed a story that would have killed off Storm?

OMG, is this true? What abominable storyline was this?

[butterflykyss]

Actually people get really irritated about Jean's power levels as well and try to discount what she's done. As you can see with posters on this thread, they'll stoop to any level to discount even the smallest of feats she's done. It's all about negation with them, so Jean and Ororo seem to share that. Playing the Phoenix card to say that Jean could not have done something without the Phoenix is the most popular dissent that we Jean fans hear.

According to Claremont's Classic X-Men 43, when Jean meets with Death, he tells her that the Phoenix is her power like Excalibur belongs to King Arthur and that her children will inherit her powers. Claremont's idea was that the Phoenix wasn't an entity but a force. Something sorta like the Star Wars Force where it is something that certain people can tap into, but it's not alive or a separate being. When Jean meets the "Phoenix" on the space shuttle, Phoenix tells her that she's assuming a humanoid form because that's what Jean's mind can understand right now. Jean realizes that this means she is imagining this entire encounter, but Phoenix basically says that doesn't matter. Also at this point, there was no Phoenix. Phoenix was a creation of Jean. She imagined herself as a firebird woman in both her childhood and even had Phoenix posters up in her room. It is she who creates the Phoenix name and mantle as well as firebird imagery by taking the power of the force, which according to Death, belongs to her. It wasn't until later writers in Excalibur retconned this and said that the Phoenix Force was given the Phoenix imagery from the dawn of time by Necrom. Otherwise, in Claremont's mythos (which always trumps other writers for me), the Phoenix was entirely Jean's, and the power of the force that she could tap into seemed to uniquely belong to her. Morrison went with this idea as well and literally said that Jean's secondary mutation allowed her to manifest the Phoenix Force so it's in her DNA/genes. I'm of the belief that Jean and the Phoenix can't be separated and Endsong confirmed that, but Marvel has never been good with continuity so that isn't the case right now.

So for me, it isn't an issue of whether or not it's "cheating" for Jean's power levels to be augmented by the Phoenix, because I've always seen the Phoenix as her power. But for those who do not prescribe by that belief, that's ok, because in X-Men Forever, she hasn't had contact with the Phoenix. When she speaks with Eternity, she doesn't have the Phoenix in her and she doesn't manifest it again until Morrison's Run. Also I never thought that Jean speaking to Eternity was anywhere near the same level as Ororo housing Eternity within her. I just wanted to point out that Jean was not housing the Phoenix within her in that issue (unless you believe as I do, that Phoenix is Jean and not a separate entity...Claremont literally says that it isn't an entity but a force).

Rutog98 posted that he/she does not like Jean so I didn't find it coincidental then that there were several posts following that to portray Jean as being weak. That opinion is allowed of course, but not when circumstantial evidence out of context is being used such as the Eternity scan and saying that Jean bypassing Juggernaut's helmet doesn't count because it's from an old issue or that Psylocke doing the same also doesn't count because she wasn't an omega-level mutant back then. I wanted to defend two of my favorite heroines besides Storm, otherwise I'd much prefer talking about casting choices for Ororo like Naomie Harris.

1.) Well I'm sure there is a lot of frustration about that but Jean is still respected as being powerful and Omega level.

2.) That's a fair enough point about Jean and Eternity. My point is give Ororo her due was all. As far as Jean and the Phoenix I believe whatever 616 says.

You do have a point kyss, anytime any feat of hers seems impressive it has to be mocked or she's put to a higher standard. Her scrambling someone's synapses is an outlier, being immune to lightning isn't valid because of 2 instances that happened under writers who didn't prove to know her very well, just recently breaking the sound barrier is obviously PIS compared to occasionally being tagged by objects and people in her 40 or so years, and the possibility of her being a Goddess is obviously just fanboy nonsense.

exactly. jean doesmt get that type of push back from others. it's always storm and you pointed to perfect recent examples of how that happens.

Question to Storm fans.



In her new solo who do you want to appear? I mean entire Marvel appearances or just X-verse? Sometimes I feel the company wide guest spots kinda take me out of it. I kinda just want a new Storm supporting cast and thennX Characters. Whether they be rivals or allies. Idk just spitballing.

Also Mutant or non mutant love interest? I think only mutant and hopefully 616 Wolverine. Wonder if Stor fans would be cool with that? I suggest Wolverine because Storm deserves A List love interest and I don't really like her with BP because he's human. (I like Forge but I guess that's over)

She's with BP now so I want that explored as well as her fighting cosmic threats.

Storm & Phoenix are BFF why aren't their fans??

I have no issue with Jean or her fans. People can disagree and that should be acceptable.

[butterflykyss]

Smart, honestly I want Storm to actually experience an ascension storyline where she gets her own time to literally shine the same way as Phoenix did without all the genocide and crazy.

exactly this is what she deserves!

[Chaos Reigns]

OMG, is this true? What abominable storyline was this?

Yeah, it was proposed that Magneto would tilt the world off its axis making killer storms and global weather. Storm would sacrifice herself to make it right.

[JeanGreyForever]

Yeah, it was proposed that Magneto would tilt the world off its axis making killer storms and global weather. Storm would sacrifice herself to make it right.

That must have been the Magneto War storyline they ended up with. I don't approve of this at all. I'm glad Marvel nixed this idea. It's one thing if they "killed" her off to bring her back like Claremont did with Young 'Ro, but this sounds like a permanent (as permanent as a death can be in the MU) death.