Storm >>> APPRECIATION <<<

[rutog98]

That's a limited way of viewing Nate Grey's power. He's in a league above most psis and his power makes him one with time and allows him to use his powers in unique was that are comparable to Storm.

Here he's using his telepathy to read data.


How is that different than Storm's energy sight?

PSI energy is as ancient as the universal life forces Ororo is connected to.

This not like Ororo's energy sight at all. He's using his powers to scan the computer's data records in a similar fashion to how a telepath scans one's memory for information. Its a creative use of his powers that I am not sure really fits TP/TK, but he's able to do this. This is more of a Magneto-esque type feat. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/mpdvIAdat2F...DPyOhToz=s1600

I think its an expansion, if you will, of X-Man's ability to harness his TK power to affect the EM fields and generate EMP waves. It doesn't really make sense for his powerset, but canon gave him this, so Shaman X-Man can do it.

That said, again, this is not like Ororo's energy sight.

Even if you are correct and psionic energy is as ancient as the universe itself, it still proves nothing. Telepaths don't sit there and command psi energy, either. They harness their own psi powers. They don't summon psi energy from other telepaths. Can you imagine a scenario where Emma or Xavier are facing an enemy and say, "I summon the psionic energy of Psylocke to aid my mindblast to vanquish this fiend!" No, that's not how psi powers work, but Ororo's work that way.

[butterflykyss]

That's a limited way of viewing Nate Grey's power. He's in a league above most psis and his power makes him one with time and allows him to use his powers in unique was that are comparable to Storm.

Here he's using his telepathy to read data.


How is that different than Storm's energy sight?

PSI energy is as ancient as the universal life forces Ororo is connected to.

I'm sorry I'm not seeing any correlation to this and her energy sight. Please elaborate.

[butterflykyss]

Her powers is not limited to heavenly bodies (stars, planets, moons, etc.). She must be linked to some kind of a universal life force, if you will. Remember from Uncanny 166, the issue states that she can percieve the universe as patterns of energy she can bend to her will be it stars, planets, or empty space.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/71Tg6Wel96T...xVFony0a=s1600

This would also explain why when she travels to other realities, her powers adapt so she can likewise control the universal forces there like when she was in the Trion dimension. She's not limited to just heavenly bodies.

ok this makes sense thank you

[ShepardOakenshieldPrime]

Apparently Jean gets power hungry after the x-jet gets hit by a solar flare and somehow powers her up, so no Storm is not likely to be manipulating anything in space especially solar winds when that would be the perfect time but it would take away Jean's development into Phoenix.

[rutog98]

By the way, since you seem to be keen on lowballing Emma, why don't I post some scans just to show how powerful she really is:

Emma is a powerful enough telepathic foe that Phoenix Force Jean Grey first takes her measure in a fight rather than just simply overwhelming her. At first, the fight looks even between the two psis:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/aQ99128cVqb...chTPY0Z6=s1600


In this scan, Emma channels what power she has left (meaning she doesn't have her full power anymore at this point) into a psychic blast that physically destroys a building:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/7oq3-DnYb2L...R91_uSNE=s1600

In new Mutants #39, she does psychic surgery on a major scale:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/fye4QLd8J5b...Takluw0c=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/WhUkIFaJL8h...Ji4PscQd=s1600

Here, Emma channels all of the ambient psionic energy in the area into a psionic lightning bolt:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/8jclMn7vmh-...2BB0DAbv=s1600

This, of course, is after her effortless take down of the rest of Generation X:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/PeTpBXwoMrs...dAWAUVpF=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Q_M1wH1B5_u...AJu0ctxg=s1600

There was also an issue of Generation X where Dark Beast set up dozens of telepathic psi-blockers designed to keep out telepaths and Emma just used her telepathy to completely overwhelm all of the psi-blocking tech.

[yogaflame]

Ok. One final time, as simply as possible:

If you want to wiggle your toe, you first have to have a thought to do so, and then your nervous system must relay that electrical message through your central nervous system, down the length of your leg to your foot, and then your toe can move.

Storm's nervous system is wired so that her bodily perception does not end at her skin, but rather extends infinitely into the universe around her. The furthest reaches of space are her 'toes'. When she wants to move her toe(make weather effect), she still has to have a thought, and allow that thought wave to propagate through the 'nervous system'(the atmosphere/universe) to reach her toe, and make it wiggle(do the weather effect).

In order to feel/know her toe is there in the first place, she must have an empathic/telepathic connection to her body(let's call that the autonomic nervous system), and to actually move the toe, that is to say the active atmokinetic/telekinetic aspect, she utilizes the somatic nervous system. These two main branches can be further divided into subbranches(autonomic consists of the parasympathetic nervous system(rest and digest) and sympathetic nervous system(fight or flight); the somatic consists of spinal nerves(carry motor commands and sensory input to the spinal cord), cranial nerves(carrying info into and out of the brain), and association nerves(which integrate the input and output)). If any of these branches are compromised or interrupted, she can't move her toe(use her powers).

We know for certain that her ability to move her toe can be interrupted(when she lost her powers from Forge's gun), even if her toe might wiggle seemingly on it's own(when her powers were off, but the weather would still occasionally do dramatic things inline with her emotions). There are any number of real forms of paralysis to compare in this regard(from severing nerves from trauma, to auto-immune diseases which corrupt or degrade the nerves). When Viper cut her up in X-Treme X-Men, her powers suffered(despite the care of Khan's medics, largely because of her over-exertion before the nerves had fully reconnected). In X-Men The End, we saw a Storm who was almost completely paralyzed from overuse of her powers(which she still could use, but she couldn't move herself anymore, so, an example of one of those subbranches being compromised, while others still intact). Various mutant suppressing technologies and various physical or energetic fields, have been used over the years to stop her from using her powers as she would like.

For additional comparison, notice the abilities of traditional telepaths/telekinetics:

In the early days, when Charles used his telepathy, he would have to astral project, sending his mind to actually travel to find the target mind before he could read their minds or communicate. Over time this intermediary step is brushed over, and we just see the floating head/thought bubbles/captions or what have you, but this early phase shows his process.



Here we can see Jean and her telekinesis represented as a net of lines extending from her brain, searching out to find the objects she wants to move telekinetically. She must make that connection before the thing can move, and it can be beyond her actual physical ability to see, by using her 'tk net' to 'tactility grasp' for the thing. Once she feels it, then she can move it. Again, over time, the net of lines terminating at her brain is dropped in favor of a nimbus of glowing energy(that may or may not be visible, may or may not actually connect back to her head directly) shown around the object in movement, but this early phase shows her process.

Attachment 59092

Traditional psions have various applications of remote viewing or extra-sensory perception. Storm's 'energy vision' is just her own specific variation of this common psionic ability(instead of regular pictures or words, she is attuned to the elemental forces). Regular telepaths' esp is epitomized in their ability to go to the Astral Plane, which is actually the sum totality of thoughts for all beings, which can often be represented as a colorful panoramic substrate that they can shape and bend into their desired forms with pure strength of will(to battle, or explore, or otherwise interact with other minds). Storm usually does not have voluntary access to this Astral Plane, and telepaths usually do not have access to her own 'Atmospheric Plane' if you will, but Storm has on rare occasions been helped to the Astral Plane by a normal telepath, but her elemental powers are typically useless there. In a singular case, however, she was able to use her normal mutant powers to effect change in the Astral Plane(when she used her lightning to erase Bishop's memory of all that Hope/Cable villainy), showing her powers are in fact psionic fundamentally.



In conclusion, while Storm's powers do differ in very important ways from usual tps/tks, her power is fundamentally psionic, and through her nervous system and consciousness, she is able to establish a connection with the elemental 'mind'(and spirit of course, if you will) of the universe(a special version of tp), and mentally control its physical qualities at a distance(tk).

Ok, that's it. If you don't get how her powers are now comparable to tp/tk, and how her conscious mind still has to work to connect to the elements to do stuff, I can't explain it any more succinctly.

[yogaflame]

High level telepaths do function similar to that but instead of the environment forming to her will astral plane or people confirm to it. Case in point whenever the shadowking attacks the astral plane shifts to his image or remember when Nate Grey stopped everything from moving subconsciously. There are plenty of instances of telepaths or telekinetics using their powers with less than conscious thought and it affecting the people or the environment around them or the astral plane.

Yasssss!

Too cheap to let Storm part the rain above her(or just move the whole storm)? Storm don't need no stinking umbrella.... and by the Goddess she is pale!

1. Yes they do. Nate Grey, Charles, Jean all do in the astral plane. The environment is different but they do.

Shaman Nate Grey did, Charles has, the shadow king has.

3. All the telepaths that have had the ultimate intimacy do experience that Union with another person, Storm experiences that with the environment. Telepaths operate in different dimensions across different realities. One of the world of physics the other is the world of the mind.

Yessss!!!!

Emma's inability to control Storms powers doesn't negate any of the other things I have said. Her failure doesn't change anything else. She's just one telepath. Nate is someone else, Charles is someone else.

Exactly. The mind of the universe/earth is far larger and more complex than the singular human minds most tps are used to interacting. Notice how Storm in Emma's body was able to get the hang of tp, but with some fits and starts. It's like a painter trying to do a portrait in stone. They understand the fundamental artistry of it, but they will need to get used to the new medium.

That's a limited way of viewing Nate Grey's power. He's in a league above most psis and his power makes him one with time and allows him to use his powers in unique was that are comparable to Storm.

Here he's using his telepathy to read data.


How is that different than Storm's energy sight?

PSI energy is as ancient as the universal life forces Ororo is connected to.

It's not different. They are just being obstinate. Storm's power is fundamentally psionic, she just works in a different frequency/medium than most other psions.

[rutog98]

Ok. One final time, as simply as possible:

If you want to wiggle your toe, you first have to have a thought to do so, and then your nervous system must relay that electrical message through your central nervous system, down the length of your leg to your foot, and then your toe can move.

Storm's nervous system is wired so that her bodily perception does not end at her skin, but rather extends infinitely into the universe around her. The furthest reaches of space are her 'toes'. When she wants to move her toe(make weather effect), she still has to have a thought, and allow that thought wave to propagate through the 'nervous system'(the atmosphere/universe) to reach her toe, and make it wiggle(do the weather effect).

In order to feel/know her toe is there in the first place, she must have an empathic/telepathic connection to her body(let's call that the autonomic nervous system), and to actually move the toe, that is to say the active atmokinetic/telekinetic aspect, she utilizes the somatic nervous system. These two main branches can be further divided into subbranches(autonomic consists of the parasympathetic nervous system(rest and digest) and sympathetic nervous system(fight or flight); the somatic consists of spinal nerves(carry motor commands and sensory input to the spinal cord), cranial nerves(carrying info into and out of the brain), and association nerves(which integrate the input and output)). If any of these branches are compromised or interrupted, she can't move her toe(use her powers).

We know for certain that her ability to move her toe can be interrupted(when she lost her powers from Forge's gun), even if her toe might wiggle seemingly on it's own(when her powers were off, but the weather would still occasionally do dramatic things inline with her emotions). There are any number of real forms of paralysis to compare in this regard(from severing nerves from trauma, to auto-immune diseases which corrupt or degrade the nerves). When Viper cut her up in X-Treme X-Men, her powers suffered(despite the care of Khan's medics, largely because of her over-exertion before the nerves had fully reconnected). In X-Men The End, we saw a Storm who was almost completely paralyzed from overuse of her powers(which she still could use, but she couldn't move herself anymore, so, an example of one of those subbranches being compromised, while others still intact). Various mutant suppressing technologies and various physical or energetic fields, have been used over the years to stop her from using her powers as she would like.

For additional comparison, notice the abilities of traditional telepaths/telekinetics:

In the early days, when Charles used his telepathy, he would have to astral project, sending his mind to actually travel to find the target mind before he could read their minds or communicate. Over time this intermediary step is brushed over, and we just see the floating head/thought bubbles/captions or what have you, but this early phase shows his process.



Here we can see Jean and her telekinesis represented as a net of lines extending from her brain, searching out to find the objects she wants to move telekinetically. She must make that connection before the thing can move, and it can be beyond her actual physical ability to see, by using her 'tk net' to 'tactility grasp' for the thing. Once she feels it, then she can move it. Again, over time, the net of lines terminating at her brain is dropped in favor of a nimbus of glowing energy(that may or may not be visible, may or may not actually connect back to her head directly) shown around the object in movement, but this early phase shows her process.

Attachment 59092

Traditional psions have various applications of remote viewing or extra-sensory perception. Storm's 'energy vision' is just her own specific variation of this common psionic ability(instead of regular pictures or words, she is attuned to the elemental forces). Regular telepaths' esp is epitomized in their ability to go to the Astral Plane, which is actually the sum totality of thoughts for all beings, which can often be represented as a colorful panoramic substrate that they can shape and bend into their desired forms with pure strength of will(to battle, or explore, or otherwise interact with other minds). Storm usually does not have voluntary access to this Astral Plane, and telepaths usually do not have access to her own 'Atmospheric Plane' if you will, but Storm has on rare occasions been helped to the Astral Plane by a normal telepath, but her elemental powers are typically useless there. In a singular case, however, she was able to use her normal mutant powers to effect change in the Astral Plane(when she used her lightning to erase Bishop's memory of all that Hope/Cable villainy), showing her powers are in fact psionic fundamentally.



In conclusion, while Storm's powers do differ in very important ways from usual tps/tks, her power is fundamentally psionic, and through her nervous system and consciousness, she is able to establish a connection with the elemental 'mind'(and spirit of course, if you will) of the universe(a special version of tp), and mentally control its physical qualities at a distance(tk).

Ok, that's it. If you don't get how her powers are now comparable to tp/tk, and how her conscious mind still has to work to connect to the elements to do stuff, I can't explain it any more succinctly.

There are a lot of problems with this:

1) You are using telepathy interchageably with things that don't fit in that realm regarding Ororo's powers. Telepaths have to make an effort to forge a mindlink with another person's psyche. Storm doesn't have to do that. She is automatically physically and spiritually connected to the universe around her without trying to be.

2) When Viper slashed Storm's spinal chord, she unwittingly sliced the part of the backbone which affects one's mutant ability. Likewise, Forge's gun repressed Storm's mutant powers. It is Ororo's mutancy that is responsible for her oneness with the universe around her. Its not all of this telepathic stuff you are talking about. Storm is no telepath. So, of course if you do something that inteferes with mutant powers, it will have an effect on her powers. This has nothing to do with the discussion we are having. Also, the universe is not connected to Storm's nervous system.

3) X-Men: The End is not 616 canon. Also, if Storm works towards realizing her full potential, she would evolve into an elemental being and would not have the issues her X-Men: The End counterpart had.

4) Again, in the case of the Jean TK scan and all, a TK must first make psychokinetic contact with their target before being able to move it. Jean did not control that lock directly, but indirectly via her TK as she does till this day. Storm, on the other hand, controls the wind directly. She controls EM fields directly. She controls lightning directly. She controls heat directly. She controls cosmic forces directly. She does not use an intermediary power to do so like Jean does with her TK to move tables around. Ororo is able to do this because of her spiritual and physical unity with the universal forces around her which enables her to commune with those energies directly willing them to do what she wants.

5) Look, think of telepaths as antenna which receives radiowaves (in this case, other people's thoughts). If thoughts are not carefully guarded, they will be broadcast out and picked up by telepaths who don't have psychic shields in place to keep out invading thoughts. Telepaths, however, are not innately one with other people's thoughts. Storm is innately one with the energies of the universe around her.

6) While Xavier may no longer have to send his astral self out to contact another mind, he must still send out psychic scans to locate the mind he wants to find and then establish a link with that mind to speak to it telepathically. Storm's powers don't work like that. She is automatically linked to her environment. Hence, she can detect movement through her surroundings without trying, she can feel the energy of other beings if they release that energy in the environment, etc. Storm's unity with the universe around her is much deeper than what you are saying by trying to make it like TP/TK.

7) While Ororo does use her thoughts to control the forces of nature, that doesn't make it automatically like telepathy. Telepaths are invading parties that try and bludgeon their way into another person's psyche. They are uniquely separate from the other person and don't have the unique spiritual and physical unity that Storm naturally has with her surroundings.

8) Where does a telepath gain spiritual and material sustenance from reading minds or a TK gain that kind of sustenance from moving objects or just being in the presence of objects? Storm, just being in the presence of an abundance of life energies gains spiritual and material sustenance.

[rutog98]

The things Butterflykyss and I are talking about also explains why Storm had such profound control over her powers on day 1 when they first manifested while psis and other mutants don't have anywhere near that kind of control. Their powers tend to be out of control and overwhelms them upon their initial manifestations. Its Ororo's unity with the universe around her and her communion with those forces via this communion that makes the difference.

[JeanGreyForever]

I'm feeling so disgusted right now on how rape is being justified and/or hand-waived towards Ororo. This is definitely why black feminism is its own separate thing, because the combination of race and sex seems to drive people insane.

[butterflykyss]

Ok. One final time, as simply as possible:

If you want to wiggle your toe, you first have to have a thought to do so, and then your nervous system must relay that electrical message through your central nervous system, down the length of your leg to your foot, and then your toe can move.

Storm's nervous system is wired so that her bodily perception does not end at her skin, but rather extends infinitely into the universe around her. The furthest reaches of space are her 'toes'. When she wants to move her toe(make weather effect), she still has to have a thought, and allow that thought wave to propagate through the 'nervous system'(the atmosphere/universe) to reach her toe, and make it wiggle(do the weather effect).

In order to feel/know her toe is there in the first place, she must have an empathic/telepathic connection to her body(let's call that the autonomic nervous system), and to actually move the toe, that is to say the active atmokinetic/telekinetic aspect, she utilizes the somatic nervous system. These two main branches can be further divided into subbranches(autonomic consists of the parasympathetic nervous system(rest and digest) and sympathetic nervous system(fight or flight); the somatic consists of spinal nerves(carry motor commands and sensory input to the spinal cord), cranial nerves(carrying info into and out of the brain), and association nerves(which integrate the input and output)). If any of these branches are compromised or interrupted, she can't move her toe(use her powers).

We know for certain that her ability to move her toe can be interrupted(when she lost her powers from Forge's gun), even if her toe might wiggle seemingly on it's own(when her powers were off, but the weather would still occasionally do dramatic things inline with her emotions). There are any number of real forms of paralysis to compare in this regard(from severing nerves from trauma, to auto-immune diseases which corrupt or degrade the nerves). When Viper cut her up in X-Treme X-Men, her powers suffered(despite the care of Khan's medics, largely because of her over-exertion before the nerves had fully reconnected). In X-Men The End, we saw a Storm who was almost completely paralyzed from overuse of her powers(which she still could use, but she couldn't move herself anymore, so, an example of one of those subbranches being compromised, while others still intact). Various mutant suppressing technologies and various physical or energetic fields, have been used over the years to stop her from using her powers as she would like.

For additional comparison, notice the abilities of traditional telepaths/telekinetics:

In the early days, when Charles used his telepathy, he would have to astral project, sending his mind to actually travel to find the target mind before he could read their minds or communicate. Over time this intermediary step is brushed over, and we just see the floating head/thought bubbles/captions or what have you, but this early phase shows his process.

[IMG]https://kevinreviewsuncannyxmen.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/photo

Here we can see Jean and her telekinesis represented as a net of lines extending from her brain, searching out to find the objects she wants to move telekinetically. She must make that connection before the thing can move, and it can be beyond her actual physical ability to see, by using her 'tk net' to 'tactility grasp' for the thing. Once she feels it, then she can move it. Again, over time, the net of lines terminating at her brain is dropped in favor of a nimbus of glowing energy(that may or may not be visible, may or may not actually connect back to her head directly) shown around the object in movement, but this early phase shows her process.

Attachment 59092

Traditional psions have various applications of remote viewing or extra-sensory perception. Storm's 'energy vision' is just her own specific variation of this common psionic ability(instead of regular pictures or words, she is attuned to the elemental forces). Regular telepaths' esp is epitomized in their ability to go to the Astral Plane, which is actually the sum totality of thoughts for all beings, which can often be represented as a colorful panoramic substrate that they can shape and bend into their desired forms with pure strength of will(to battle, or explore, or otherwise interact with other minds). Storm usually does not have voluntary access to this Astral Plane, and telepaths usually do not have access to her own 'Atmospheric Plane' if you will, but Storm has on rare occasions been helped to the Astral Plane by a normal telepath, but her elemental powers are typically useless there. In a singular case, however, she was able to use her normal mutant powers to effect change in the Astral Plane(when she used her lightning to erase Bishop's memory of all that Hope/Cable villainy), showing her powers are in fact psionic fundamentally.



In conclusion, while Storm's powers do differ in very important ways from usual tps/tks, her power is fundamentally psionic, and through her nervous system and consciousness, she is able to establish a connection with the elemental 'mind'(and spirit of course, if you will) of the universe(a special version of tp), and mentally control its physical qualities at a distance(tk).

Ok, that's it. If you don't get how her powers are now comparable to tp/tk, and how her conscious mind still has to work to connect to the elements to do stuff, I can't explain it any more succinctly.

Though this is a rare occasion I disagree with you I do love the level of detail and realism you bring to these conversations involving fictional characters. I can understand your rationale for why you make the comparison you have to telepathy and telekinesis; however, 616 doesn't align to your assessment. Especially when you consider the encounter between Emma and Ororo where they swapped bodies. If they are the same in application, which it what it appears you are concluding, why wasn't Emma able to quell the storm and required Ororo to help her regain control of the elements? If the application is the same, why waa she so ecstatic by initially using storms powers and being a living part of the storm she created?



The example you showed of Jean I agree she has to connect with the lock to move it but the connection mentioned and shown there is not equivalent to the connection Ororo has with her powers. Her powers are an extension of herself and she is directly linked, the same is not true of Jean and the lock.



In regards to her energy sight I see the parallels but again there is nothing in 616 canon that explicitly stated these forms of perception are the same and again it they were I don't imagine Emma would have had the reaction she did as emphasized by Claremont when they traded bodies.

[butterflykyss]

Yasssss!



Too cheap to let Storm part the rain above her(or just move the whole storm)? Storm don't need no stinking umbrella.... and by the Goddess she is pale!



Yessss!!!!



Exactly. The mind of the universe/earth is far larger and more complex than the singular human minds most tps are used to interacting. Notice how Storm in Emma's body was able to get the hang of tp, but with some fits and starts. It's like a painter trying to do a portrait in stone. They understand the fundamental artistry of it, but they will need to get used to the new medium.



It's not different. They are just being obstinate. Storm's power is fundamentally psionic, she just works in a different frequency/medium than most other psions.

i dont think thats fair to say. we're not being obstinate we just disagree and it's not like we aren't arguing from a place purely inline with 616.

I'm feeling so disgusted right now on how rape is being justified and/or hand-waived towards Ororo. This is definitely why black feminism is its own separate thing, because the combination of race and sex seems to drive people insane.

yes i waa a bit disappointed in the that discussion but I can't say in anyway I'm surprised.

[yogaflame]

Think about a newly manifest telepath. Do they have to 'work to make a connection' to minds? No. They are automatically attuned to all minds in their vicinity, and it often overwhelms them(but not always, depending on the psychology and environment of the telepath in question). It is through time/training that they are able to tamper down that connection and select exactly which mind they want to interface with, and at what depth. Ororo's psychology was incredibly robust by the time she manifested due to her very traumatic youth that she worked hard to overcome during her thieving days, and she was not in a house with angry siblings and parents, she was in the vast open plains of the Sahara when her powers first manifest, so instead of being bombarded by chaotic thoughts, she slipped into the gentle embrace of the atmospheric mind(further moderated by her childhood conditioning from her mother that she was from a line of priestess/queen, and the actual epigenetic memories of her ancestors)/mother earth/the Goddess. She was just lucky to interface with a better mind, with better psychological preperation.

Even still, however, Ororo had to cultivate a very particular personality and temperament to prevent her powers from flaring out of control in accordance with her own internal emotional stress, and this is something she has not 100% mastered even to this day(as evidenced in her recent solo in several instances, for example).

[yogaflame]

I'm feeling so disgusted right now on how rape is being justified and/or hand-waived towards Ororo. This is definitely why black feminism is its own separate thing, because the combination of race and sex seems to drive people insane.

It's true. And most of Emma's fans are white, I would imagine, and loose overlook this connection.

[JeanGreyForever]

It's true. And most of Emma's fans are white, I would imagine, and loose overlook this connection.

Not only do the two characters have completely different racial backgrounds but socioeconomic backgrounds too if you compare Ororo's American father to the other one's parents. Of course, only one of them is a true queen.