Post-crisis Batman vs MCU Comic Book Peak Humans

[moonknight11]

Yeah, it's pretty below MCU Cap considering the helicopter and motorcycle stuff. It's a tree, Cap killed a jeep with a bike as a thrown object (not even a melee weapon, as I'd otherwise recalled)

Using a heavy object (and it's momentum) is different than using your actual body to take out a tree. Cap didn't punch apart that Humvee.

I've seen calcs of the helicopter feat in the ton range, and Cap is as described by the directors fired up on adrenaline. Like a mother who manages to lift a car off her child (I think they used this exact comparison). That ton range is what I see comic book peak humans at. Comic book cap lifts that, and Daredevil flips a limo. And Bruce kicks a tree down.

[Pendaran]

Using a heavy object (and it's momentum) is different than using your actual body to take out a tree. Cap didn't punch apart that Humvee.

I've seen calcs of the helicopter feat in the ton range, and Cap is as described by the directors fired up on adrenaline. Like a mother who manages to lift a car off her child (I think they used this exact comparison). That ton range is what I see comic book peak humans at. Comic book cap lifts that, and Daredevil flips a limo. And Bruce kicks a tree down.

I'm honestly not putting a lot of stock in any of that. Those calcs seem like they're really trying to undersell the event then, and even "being fired up on adrenalin" would have to basically make Cap some kind of low grade Hulk to pull that off with regards how much his strength would then have to jump from what you're saying it would be otherwise (by which I mean how much adrenalin would have to magnify his strength, not that he's in any other way comparable to the Hulk).

And again, the problem with the momentum thing, Cap straight up threw the thing, the impact did well more than a bike crashing into a jeep, and if the momentum and force was all otherwise that potent, Cap wouldn't have been able to throw it, he'd have gone flying with it. He didn't just let go of the thing, he visibly threw it.

On the plus side, having to defend these performances is doing wonders for what will probably be the inevitable claim of some against Cap bias or other, given how threads that reach this current point usually go.

[big_adventure]

MCU Cap's best speed feats, as far as I recall them:

Some low end aim-dodge kind of stuff - a lot of getting his shield up and into the right place at the right time, etc. He's also considerably faster than elite SHIELD agents, and these are people who should be on May/Ward kinds of levels.

Being about as quick in combat as Loki, Loki who is about as quick in combat as Thor (who repeatedly and consistently bats away energy blasts with his hammer in multiple movies, energy blasts that are moving at least as fast as bullets, based on distance and counting the frames of the video, and who trivially dances around the Hulk, and who is about as fast and as skilled as his sister, just doesn't heal quite as well), and Loki who, in the same movie, makes a trivial no-look arrow catch. BUT this has a huge caveat: Loki had to lose this fight for his plan to work. Loki was ALSO acting as the distraction to allow the Hawkeye's iridium theft.

Being at least as quick in combat as Winter Soldier, who has some low end aim-dodgey stuff himself.

Catching Corvus Glaive's spear out of the air trivially.

He has some other general speed kinds of things that are pretty far beyond Batman: running down cars on foot, catching a submarine swimming, etc.

All in all, not really enough there to stick his speed consistently at Comic Batman's levels.

OTOH, yeah, he's a LOT stronger and likely a lot more durable: falling 40 floors onto concrete and then getting up, staying active and getting the helicarrier reprogrammed despite multiple GSWs and significant fighting beforehand, slamming straight through walls without slowing down, taking numerous hits from Loki, armored Batroc, Chitauri weapons, etc. Having grenades and rockets and bombs explode near/on him. Taking repeated, unresisted shots from Red Skull, a guy strong enough to punch his knuckle print into 3/4 inch bulletproof steel. Multiple shots from Batroc's armor, multiple shots from Bucky's arm, blah blah blah. He also shrugged off multiple extended contact from SHIELD TASER things that were one-shotting elite agents, conveying that he has at least some resistance to having his nerves futzed about with. The argument could be made that his durability and such are just out of Bruce's ability to pressure point, but it's a hard bar to cross, frankly, given what Bruce has done and Bruce's speed edge here.

But, he isn't alone here, and the strategy of just charging up BP ought to work just fine.

[The Watcher]

Just want to officially remind people that feats are not transitive. Someone hitting an arrow-timer doesn't automatically make that someone an arrow-timer. They have to directly demonstrate such type of speed themselves consistently.

[Carabas]

Just want to officially remind people that feats are not transitive. Someone hitting an arrow-timer doesn't automatically make that someone an arrow-timer. They have to directly demonstrate such type of speed themselves consistently.

This started with this: "Reflex performances to suggest he's pulling that off on the guy who does no look arrow catches on an arrow shot from behind him by the likes of Green Arrow?"
He literally asks for something that shows Cap can hit a no-look-arrow-catcher when Cap has hit a no-look-arrow-catcher.

That's different from transitive feats, I believe..

[The Arbiter]

This started with this: "Reflex performances to suggest he's pulling that off on the guy who does no look arrow catches on an arrow shot from behind him by the likes of Green Arrow?"
He literally asks for something that shows Cap can hit a no-look-arrow-catcher when Cap has hit a no-look-arrow-catcher.

That's different from transitive feats, I believe..

No it's not.

Batman caught an arrow without looking. Loki caught an arrow without looking. Those are feats for them and them alone.

Pen asked if MCU cap had feats on that level beyond "managed to hit a guy that did that".

Batman has also smacked around speedsters as far as the "he hit a dude with good feats" goes.

Edit: I feel like you misread what Pen intended.

[Pendaran]

This started with this: "Reflex performances to suggest he's pulling that off on the guy who does no look arrow catches on an arrow shot from behind him by the likes of Green Arrow?"
He literally asks for something that shows Cap can hit a no-look-arrow-catcher when Cap has hit a no-look-arrow-catcher.

That's different from transitive feats, I believe..

I asked for Cap doing something comparative reflex wise to a no look arrow catch from behind. All you could do was provide a transitive feat of him hitting someone who had done something like that. Then you decided "well reflex feats don't matter anyway" when asked if that means you're now arguing Batman is as fast as all the speedy guys he's hit, as opposed to answering that question, as if realizing that being remotely consistent with anything you've posted in this thread would mean that yes, he is. All this while ignoring that the standards of "well it wouldn't matter in comics" applies just fine to everything you've said for why Cap would otherwise win somehow, considering that nothing is relevant unless the given writer wants it to be relevant, and when it isn't, Batman can act through beatings from Superman, come out unharmed from explosions and an otherwise long list of, somehow, various high end damage, certainly well beyond anything Cap can do, not having taken him out. Other than "because I want to say Cap wins" can you explain why "well reflex feats wouldn't matter in comics" wouldn't also mean "then neither would how strong Cap is" if you're going to be at all consistent with yourself?

The arguments you make in this thread are a really good example of why we had to come up with some kind of "here's how we weigh performances" guidelines in the first place, because otherwise you basically get a guy coming along making some really selective arguments that are nothing but repeatedly a lot of double standards over and over, then ignoring when those double standards get pointed out. And that's not so much debating a thing as one guy saying over and over "the character I want to win wins because I said so".

A transitive feat is literally "Captain America hit someone who caught an arrow without looking. Therefore that is the same level of performance as Batman catching an arrow without looking."

You for some reason feel like you can keep ignoring the whole "Reflex performances" in terms of what is being asked for, somehow despite quoting me. I asked for a reflex performance. You gave me "Cap hit a guy who himself otherwise had the reflex performance". This does not respond to the thing I said.

Edit: I feel like you misread what Pen intended.

If he goes with how I intended it, he'd have to acknowledge having no performances to offer. His entire argument is at this point based on a bunch of "well comics" double standards for why Cap's performances count, but not those of the characters he wants to say Cap would beat, ignoring the board standards for weighing feats right up under guidelines he seems to have otherwise read by now, and avoiding answering questions when put to him.

[Carabas]

Edit: I feel like you misread what Pen intended.

I can only go with what is there on the page.

His later clarifications do not match up with the initial statement.

[Pendaran]

I can only go with what is there on the page.

His later clarifications do not match up with the initial statement.

I'm going to I guess bold the part on the page that said "reflex performances"

I said this:

Reflex performances to suggest he's pulling that off on the guy who does no look arrow catches on an arrow shot from behind him by the likes of Green Arrow?

Notice the part bolded. If you can only go with what is on the page, why when asked for a reflex performance did you provide "Cap hit a guy who is himself the one with the reflex performance"?

I asked for reflex performances. It's right there in the sentence. It is the very beginning of that sentence.

[Pendaran]

Anyway, since you've basically hit the point of "the mod ruling doesn't apply to the thing I said, and now I'm going to just argue semantics of the posts asking for the feats I was asked to provide" do you have some kind of argument at this point for MCU Cap beating Batman in a fight that isn't basically a bunch of double standards? If all you've got is "Cap hit people with impressive reflex time feats" then by that standard Batman is now ridiculously faster than Cap, considering the people who he has hit and their reflex time feats.

If all you have instead is "well reflex feats don't matter in comics for not getting hit", then aside from basically ignoring that in a PIS off fight, aka the standard of this board, the speed of someone's reaction time will matter just fine for hitting and not being hit, by that standard, neither do Cap's strength feats, as far as taking someone out, considering how much damage a character, for instance Batman, can endure, when the comic feels like they can endure it. Though it would be nice if we actually stuck to something resembling the guidelines right up under the FAQ for weighing this stuff, considering the illustrated alternative.

[The Arbiter]

Explosions! Fire and brimstone! *the sobs of orphaned children and the blare of klaxons fills the acrid air*

[Pendaran]

Explosions! Fire and brimstone! *the sobs of orphaned children and the blare of klaxons fills the acrid air*

You're getting ever closer to that 4am Denny's ;p

[The Arbiter]

You're getting ever closer to that 4am Denny's ;p

I'll make you a deal: The next debate you firmly defeat me on, I will post a video of myself eating bacon at a Denny's at 4am. But if I defeat you, you have to change your name to Pendleton and change your pic to the state of Oregon for 1 month.

On that note... Pirates or Ninjas? ;P

[Pendaran]

I'll make you a deal: The next debate you firmly defeat me on, I will post a video of myself eating bacon at a Denny's at 4am. But if I defeat you, you have to change your name to Pendleton and change your pic to the state of Oregon for 1 month.

On that note... Pirates or Ninjas? ;P

I can't in good conscience agree to a deal that would have you actually go to a Denny's at 4am to eat there, I feel like I could end up on trial at the Hague ;p

[The Arbiter]

I can't in good conscience agree to a deal that would have you actually go to a Denny's at 4am to eat there, I feel like I could end up on trial at the Hague ;p

https://youtu.be/6fal2Dx1cO0