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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    With Ares at the centre of G Willow Wilson's new Wonder Woman arc, the choice is again made for me:

    Ares

    Let me start with saying that I probably have a different view of Ares, and his development as a god, than most of you. My background in Norse mythology means that my impression of Tyr might colour some of my assumptions, especially when it comes to viewing how Ares would view the concept of justice—something which is central to Wilson's imagining of the character. However, I also believe that specific view might drive the future conflict between Ares and Wonder Woman: we will see how it goes, or Read And Find Out, as Robert Jordan used to say.

    Ares is one of the twelve gods and goddesses of the Olympos, but like Hestia his place there is a bit ambigious. He was not widely worshipped, and even the other gods (with the exception of Aphrodite) apparently hated him. He was the personification of bold force, courage, and strength, and was not so much a war god as a god of destruction. Thus he covered the tumult, confusion, and horror of war, but sometimes also plagues and epidemics. But he was also a god of both civil order as well as uprisings and riots. This again shows the way that Greek gods often were more connected with fields of responsibilities rather than specific outcomes.

    Some of the epitaphs used for Ares were beastly, bloody, manslaughtering, and stormer of cities/walls.

    Among the myths connected with Ares we find that he is jelaous of Adonis when Aphrodite took him as a lover. Ares transformed himself into a boar or bear and gored Adonis to death. But he also is unique in defending his daughter Alkippe against rape—something which was virtually unheard of for the male Olympian gods. Many myths also describe how his rash or foolhardy actions in war cause him injuries or causes him to become captured.

    According to several sources, Ares was worshipped by the Amazons. Penthesileia was said to have been his daughter, and later sources described all of the Amazons as his daughters. Hippolyta is also described as carrying the belt of Ares and of being Ares's daughter by a late source.

    Before I go on with possible re-imaginings of Ares for Wonder Woman, here is an aside into comparative mythology, because Ares has clear counterparts in other mythologies: in Roman mythology Mars, and in Norse mythology Tyr. Within Georges Dumézil's classification of Indo-european gods, there are far more possible counterparts to Ares, though that hypothesis is not without flaws or detractors. However, with Wilson picking up justice as Ares's new thing, looking to those other gods might be interesting, because they are much more about social order and justice than Ares is.

    In Norse mythology, Tyr is described as both brave and sensible, but also as someone who cannot create peace. But he is also strongly connected with the thing, the early form of democracy found in Norse culture, which acted as a forum for peacefully solving issues and determining fault in crimes. As such, he was connected with the judges. In a way, he was not so much a god of justice as of the right to decide what was right or wrong. Likewise, the Roman Mars was both a god of war but also a god of treaties (and thus peace). He was also the god of victory in war, something which is missing from the Greek Ares.

    So how to bring all this into the Amazons and Wonder Woman? Pérez's war god Ares was in many ways rather close to how the Greeks imagined him, but I think missed that an essential part of his nature was destruction. The Cold War that Pérez used as a backdrop is to me much more a corruption of Athena's warlike nature of strategy and cold reason rather than something that comes from Ares. And the fact that the Greeks mistrusted a god that was so closely associated with the Amazons makes me think that there are aspects of Ares that the patriarchal Greeks suppressed.

    One way could be to imagine the Amazon Ares as a god who embodied strength, courage, and destruction, but who recognising it also placed himself under the guidance of those more level-headed than himself, something which would be an extremely Marston-y concept. To a patriarchal society, such a god would of course be anathema. If Wilson chooses to go all the way there, my hat will go off for her. On the other hand, I expect that such a re-imaging will be a little too radical. Instead, I imagine Wilson will rather play up that Ares will more be focused on the right to make decisions of law rather than justice in the modern sense.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Wasn't there also something about "the fires of Hestia"?

    I think they currently tied Diana's Lasso to "burning out the truth with the fires of Hestia" or something like that.
    I think the "Fires of Hestia" is a reference to the "hearth". Ancient greeks always kept a fireplace/hearth burning in their homes so you could think of Hestia as the goddess of the home as well.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    The solicitation for Wonder Woman 64 and 65 mentions that Veronica Cale will get some form of connection with the goddess Nemesis, so lets see what there is to say about her.

    Nemesis

    Nemesis belonged to the group the Greek called Daemones (singular Daimona), and which were personified spirits. Their names were often rather literal, so for the ancient Greeks, e.g. "Eros" simply was one word for "love". They could represent feelings, abstract concepts, qualities, or morality. Most had very little associated mythology or cult, but Nemesis was one of the exceptions, both in her name and in that she had both cult and mythology.

    Nowadays, Nemesis is mostly associated with revenge and jealosy, but to the ancient Greeks she was different: her name can be translated as "dispenser of dues". She was the goddess of resentment against those who got away with crimes, indignation against evil deeds and undeserved good fortune, and retribution against their beneficiaries. In her role as the dispenser of dues she maintained the equilibrum, and measured out happiness and unhappiness to everyone. But her role as dispensing loss and suffering later came to dominate. She especially took an interest in matters of love. As an example, when Ameinias was cruelly spurned by Narcissus, he called upon Nemesis upon his suicide outside Narcissus's door, and asked her to avenge him.

    Depending on source, she had different parentage. Hesiod says she was born by Nyx alone (the Night, and one of the primordial gods, older than even the Titans). The Homerica Cypria however gives her father as Zeus, with no mother mentioned. Other sources say her father was Okeanos or Erebos. She also bore children. Most interesting here is that the Homerica Cypria says she was the mother of Helen of Troy, after Zeus pursued and raped her. Zeus certainly isn't a nice guy in Greek myth.

    Among her attributes can be found the apple-branch, the rein, the lash, the sword, and the balance. Some depictions give her wings, but this appears to have been noteworthy even in classical times. She didn't have many epithets, but one was "Inescapable".

    Given the above, I believe there are lots of different directions that Wilson can take Nemesis in. A goddess of indignation against evil deeds and who makes sure everyone has a share of both happiness and unhappiness would handle very differently from a goddess of justified grudges and indignation, and then we have the modern interpretation of her where they certainly don't need to be justified.

    I don't think that Wilson will use the same trick as she used with Ares and Aphrodite, of the god trying to renounce their earlier area of responsibility. For one, it would be repetitive after awhile. For another, there isn't much of a personality or imagery around Nemesis to work with. I believe it's more likely that Wonder Woman will try to attempt to bring Nemesis from a more modern interpretation of her, back to the older form as the dispenser of dues. But even that I'd give no more than a fifty-fifty chance.

    In any case, the connection between Veronica Cale and Nemesis feels earned and as a good match.

  4. #19
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    Can I post ideas I have for Circe, Medea and Pasiphae?

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    I can't stop you. But I'd prefer this thread to be somewhat focused on and grounded in the original myths. In other words: research over ideas. And I note that we don't have an active Circe appreciation thread (*hint hint*)

    ETA: And questions about mythology are of course welcome!
    Last edited by kjn; 01-10-2019 at 02:30 PM.

  6. #21
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    First, I have to say that I come a little late to this thread, because I don't follow the forum closely. Thanks for the good work!

    Then, I'd like to understand if Aphrodite was connected to luck, winning at games of chance, etc. (as far as I know, she isn't). Venus, the Roman equivalent of Aphrodite, surely was.

    For example, when rolling the dice, the best possible result was called 'Venus throw' by the Romans. As another example, Julius Caesar was famous for his luck in critical situations (although he was a good strategist and planner as well). He claimed to be a remote descendant of Venus/Aphrodite - hence his luck.

    There is even a connection between Caesar, Venus, and Wonder Woman: Before he invented Wonder Woman, Dr. Marston wrote a novel about the life of Caesar, called 'Venus With Us' (supposedly, this was the motto of Caesar's family). I haven't read the book myself, but from what I gathered, slavery and bondage play a significant part

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    Then, I'd like to understand if Aphrodite was connected to luck, winning at games of chance, etc. (as far as I know, she isn't). Venus, the Roman equivalent of Aphrodite, surely was.

    Then, I'd like to understand if Aphrodite was connected to luck, winning at games of chance, etc. (as far as I know, she isn't). Venus, the Roman equivalent of Aphrodite, surely was.
    You are correct. The Greek didn't particularly connect Aphrodite with luck (except in love, that is). The god most connected with luck in the Greek mythology is Hermes. He very specifically was the god of dicing. The Romans however had the dice throw that you mention, as well as the epithet "Venus Felix" (Lucky Venus). Mercury was also far less important to the Romans than Hermes was to the Greeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    There is even a connection between Caesar, Venus, and Wonder Woman: Before he invented Wonder Woman, Dr. Marston wrote a novel about the life of Caesar, called 'Venus With Us' (supposedly, this was the motto of Caesar's family). I haven't read the book myself, but from what I gathered, slavery and bondage play a significant part
    Yeah, I saw a description of it in Tim Hanley's book Wonder Woman Unbound.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    The latest Wonder Woman solicitation tells us that Aphrodite will ask for Diana's help to locate her son. As Fuzzy Mittens had guessed based on a tweet from G Willow Wilson, the name in the solicitation is given as Atlantiades. That tells us that Aphrodite is looking for…

    Hermaphroditus

    Yes, Hermaphroditus is the god that gave name to hermaphrodite. The mythological Hermaphroditus was the offspring of Hermes and Aphrodite, and their name was the combination of the names of their parents. The epithet Atlantiades comes from them being a descendant of the titan Atlas, and their father Hermes was also called Atlantiades for the same reason. Hermes in his turn was the son of Zeus and Maia, one of the seven daughters of Atlas.

    Hermaphroditus is one of the erotes, winged gods that accompanied Aphrodite (Eros is another one). Except for Hermaphroditus, all of them are male. Hermaphroditus was the god of intersexed people and men with feminine traits. The usual depiction was with winged female body but with male genitalia. (One can draw comparisons with the Aphroditus statues mentioned under Aphrodite, or the way that Athena sometimes is described as being male and female.) Some myths say Hermaphroditus was born "with a physical body which is a combination of that of a man and that of a woman, in that he has a body which is beautiful and delicate like that of a woman, but has the masculine quality and vigour of a man".

    The more commonly referred description of Hermaphroditus is though the one given by Ovid, where he goes out into the world and encounters the nymph Salmacis, who falls in love with him. He first rejects her, but she then tricks him into bath in his pool upon which she tries to force herself upon him. When he resists, he calls for the gods to never make them part, upon which their bodies are made into one. Afterwards, Hermaphroditus asks Hermes and Aphrodite that any man who bathes in the pool will emerge half woman.

    This means that there are two creation myths for Hermaphroditus, and I wouldn't be surprised if Wilson choose to go with the version where Hermaphroditus is born that way. Ovid's version has far too many problematic elements of rape and where intersex people are cursed.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I wonder if we go back to each God's based is not just on Olympus but also on their planet should they planets be?

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    If we return with the Gods being on also their own planets. Would there also be a way to make good sci-fic stories and not just myth ones?

  11. #26
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    If we return with the Gods being on also their own planets. Would there also be a way to make good sci-fic stories and not just myth ones?
    Olympus isn't in the mortal realm, those planets don't belong to the gods, they're just things Humans named after them

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I know. I'm going by what Marston did. That Ares was using Mars ha sa base. Diana goes t Mars to try and stop Ares attacks multiple times.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 02-03-2019 at 09:40 PM.

  13. #28
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    Medea

    Well known for being Jason's wife whom he later abandoned for Glauce, the princess of Corinth. The typical story depicts Medea as being murderous and vengeful and the originator of the phrase, "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned".

    Re-imagining her for the WW verse I think would be done in a similar vein to the Amazons. Namely, a woman who is treated as vile in the myths is re-imagined as something less... stereotypical.

    For instance, according to Apollonius, Medea only fell for Jason because she was made to by a love god (depending on the version of the story it is either Aphrodite or Eros). And the death of her children isn't always the same. The poet Eumeleus claims Medea's killing of her children was an accident while Creophylus claimed the citizens of Corinth killed her children.

    So in my origin, Medea is the princess of Colchis and is a skilled sorceress. She is mind controlled into falling in love with Jason who uses a love potion provided to him. The story plays out as usual up until they return to Corinth. Medea's magic and foreign status makes her a pariah among the citizens of Colchis who often blame her for a number of misfortunes. This culminates in Jason abandoning her and their children. The last straw comes when her children are murdered by angry neighbors which breaks Medea off Jason's love spell. Angered by the violation of her mind and body and the deaths of her children. Medea kills Jason and the people who killed her children. Lost and alone, she wonders the world in mourning until she is taken in by the first generation of Amazons.

    While they do not truly replace her family, the Amazons nonetheless provide Medea with a kind and supportive community. In return, she passes on her knowledge of magic unto them. After her passing and ascension to godhood, she continues to watch over and aid the Amazons from time to time, such as their imprisonment by Heracles. She and Diana occasionally discuss the tragedies of being mislabeled by man's world due to the myths.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    While reading up on Medea, I found the following great quote by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, written sometime between 60 and 30 BC:

    Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvelous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out
    FWIW, if I were to look into the character of Medea, I'd probably focus on her connection with Circe, rather than crafting an entirely new connection with the Amazons.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    While reading up on Medea, I found the following great quote by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, written sometime between 60 and 30 BC:



    FWIW, if I were to look into the character of Medea, I'd probably focus on her connection with Circe, rather than crafting an entirely new connection with the Amazons.
    Very interesting! Thanks for sharing these myths and insights kjn. Medea is always a character I’ve wanted to include and develop in the Wonder mythos.

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