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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Byakko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I need to re-read Simonson's run but as I recall Sif wasn't happy about Thor's continued concern for Midgard nor his assumed "dalliance" with Lorelei, which is why she gravitated to Bill (partially because of how similar he was to Thor), but it became clear later on that she still held a passion for Thor.
    Yeah, even back then it was pretty clear Bill was a substitute-Thor for Sif to emotionally grasp on a bit, even the part where she pretty much decided to 'die a hero's death' with Scuttlebutt against the demons, it was pretty much her being that forlorn about her and Thor more than anything.

    So maybe not so much Bill x Sif since they seem better as friends, but Thor x Sif still feels really one note to me as well.

    Edit: Also I realize that Bill x Sif seemed prominent because IIRC, I had the trade paperback of the saga, and the main cover showed her standing next to Bill as if they were already a pair.
    Last edited by Byakko; 09-20-2018 at 09:41 PM.

  2. #32
    Spectacular Member Tantalus's Avatar
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    Wait, hold on a second, Sif dated Beta Ray Bill?

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    Yeah, even back then it was pretty clear Bill was a substitute-Thor for Sif to emotionally grasp on a bit, even the part where she pretty much decided to 'die a hero's death' with Scuttlebutt against the demons, it was pretty much her being that forlorn about her and Thor more than anything.

    So maybe not so much Bill x Sif since they seem better as friends, but Thor x Sif still feels really one note to me as well.

    Edit: Also I realize that Bill x Sif seemed prominent because IIRC, I had the trade paperback of the saga, and the main cover showed her standing next to Bill as if they were already a pair.
    Add in the fact that she was drawn to Eric Masterson too when he held the hammer.. and it leads to some weird conversations about Sif. She always is after Thor... or anyone who reminds her of Thor :P


    Personally, I know I'm in the minority but I liked Jane better. She could have been written a bit better, but there was just something I love about the Donald Blake persona. Back when Thor truly lived amongst the mortals and had one foot on Midgard and One foot in Asgard and constantly having to choose between them.

    Once the stories become to Asgard specific... I tend to lose interest.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    When it comes right down to it Thor wasn’t working as a comic. Structurally Thor was originally a transformation type hero like Captain Marvel, and as such the Blake personality was real and separated from Thor. It was Blake as a doctor that was worthy enough to wield Mjölnir and the cave it was found in echoes the underground lair that Billy Batson entered to first meet Shazam the wizard. Captain Marvel was a mythologically themed hero because his transformation was linked to the gods. The quick and easy transformation was often highlighted in similar way in Thor, with people blinking and missing it and being confused etc. This was also why the system of transformation by banging the stick was such a big focus early on. It was Marvel’s slightly clunky version of speaking a magic word.

    The problem with this was the presence of Loki and then Odin. It implied that Thor wasn’t only real but had a long history, and yet we have no Shazam like character that passed on these powers. The continuity was muddled and confused. Kirby was into Norse Mythology so they mixed it up. The mythology backup stories proved both popular and evokative of a new direction, so they made Odin the figure that passed on the power and said Blake was just a mortal guise.

    By suddenly embracing Norse myth they had a wider cast to play with and also the extended cast from Tales of Asgard. Effectively this retconned Sif in as Thor’s partner. So again, a little clumsily, they moved Jane off of the scene.

    The problem now was maintaining Thor as a hero that people on Earth cared about. They created a tension between Asgard and Midgard, with Odin representing a pull away from Midgard by his insistence that he concentrates on being Asgard’s champion and heir. This effectively made Odin a benign antagonist and constant obstacle for Thor. That becomes a problem. Making Odin a good guy with immense power and also an obstacle has been a problem for writers ever since. Removing the Earth based love interest also takes away the most obvious analogy for Thor’s ties to Earth, leaving his birth mother Gaea, and a hero's all round good guy sensibility as the main pull towards Earth.

    In other words Sif was a well meaning misstep and the retcon effectively shifted Thor from a Captain Marvel archetype to a Superman one with Christian undertones but without the love interest to embroil him in worldly affairs.

    Anecdotally Kirby was still unhappy and suggested a complete overhaul of Thor via Ragnarok which Lee was not keen on. This coincides with Kirby looking to DC and most Kirby scholars consider the Fourth Word to be the final outworking of these ideas.

    This all suggests a lost Thor comic. A structurally fixed Thor that was never written. Unfortunately Kirby never returned to Thor when he went back to Marvel, so we will never know exactly what he might have done.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-21-2018 at 12:35 AM.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Byakko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantalus View Post
    Wait, hold on a second, Sif dated Beta Ray Bill?
    Not really 'dated', but as mentioned, Sif was attracted to Bill at the time because he was kinda of a perfect 'Thor-substitute', sans the horse-head-alien thing. Thor at the time still has his Donald Blake persona and stayed on earth, and Loki had also play-acted as Thor kissing Lorelei on purpose to rile Sif, which both her and Thor didn't realize had happened so there was tension there that Thor didn't understand.

    Couple with Bill in his debut both being worthy enough for the hammer, and legitimately beating Thor in a 1 on 1 duel while also saving him, that prolly appealed to Sif at that low point.

    Bill maybe did feel some attraction to Sif, but he was also bothered by a) he was a bio-engineered beast/'man'/cyborg thing and b) he was preoccupied with saving his people first and foremost. Sif did try to make a big heroic sacrifice with Bill's ship Scuttlebutt to save the fleet, but again it was mostly her being kinda nihilistic about being rejected by Thor, rather than anything directly to do with Bill.

    I think Sif did travel with Bill for a while, but I think both of them know that Sif treats Bill like a Thor substitute when Sif can't have Thor for one reason or another. I think they're both just basically good friends currently, but I haven't kept up with what they're both doing really.
    Last edited by Byakko; 09-21-2018 at 02:48 AM.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantalus View Post
    Wait, hold on a second, Sif dated Beta Ray Bill?
    If you read Walter Simonson's iconic run (the one that invented Beta Ray Bill), they definitely seemed to be together by the time Surtur was defeated.
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  7. #37
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    ...Anecdotally Kirby was still unhappy and suggested a complete overhaul of Thor via Ragnarok which Lee was not keen on. This coincides with Kirby looking to DC and most Kirby scholars consider the Fourth Word to be the final outworking of these ideas.

    This all suggests a lost Thor comic. A structurally fixed Thor that was never written. Unfortunately Kirby never returned to Thor when he went back to Marvel, so we will never know exactly what he might have done.
    I had never heard that one. Very interesting.

    Kind of wonder what Marvel would be had Kirby had his way and burned Asgard to a crisp in favor of "New Gods"?

  8. #38
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Can you imagine if they hadn't messed up and had kept Patty Jenkins on that movie? Not that it would be perfect, even Wonder Woman had some weaknesses (too much brute force boss fight at the end, undercutting the message, for one), but still, one imagines:

    1) More for Jane to actually do, rather than be essentially a fainting (albeit due to having a cosmic force inside her) damsel in distress to be rescued. Maybe she could have had more dialogue not just with Odin, Frigga, etc., but been able to give Loki a piece of her mind about his shenanigans.

    2) Likely no fridging for Frigga, or at least her apparent death turning out to be a fake out using her mastery of illusion.
    Would she still have been written out of Ragnarok? And what about Mjolnir? That got destroyed, but by the time Ragnarok was made Jane had become Thor in the comics, which could've been ported over (which would've definitely solved the "nothing to do" complaint). So maybe Odinson would've just become Unworthy instead.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    Not really 'dated', but as mentioned, Sif was attracted to Bill at the time because he was kinda of a perfect 'Thor-substitute', sans the horse-head-alien thing. Thor at the time still has his Donald Blake persona and stayed on earth, and Loki had also play-acted as Thor kissing Lorelei on purpose to rile Sif, which both her and Thor didn't realize had happened so there was tension there that Thor didn't understand.

    Couple with Bill in his debut both being worthy enough for the hammer, and legitimately beating Thor in a 1 on 1 duel while also saving him, that prolly appealed to Sif at that low point.

    Bill maybe did feel some attraction to Sif, but he was also bothered by a) he was a bio-engineered beast/'man'/cyborg thing and b) he was preoccupied with saving his people first and foremost. Sif did try to make a big heroic sacrifice with Bill's ship Scuttlebutt to save the fleet, but again it was mostly her being kinda nihilistic about being rejected by Thor, rather than anything directly to do with Bill.

    I think Sif did travel with Bill for a while, but I think both of them know that Sif treats Bill like a Thor substitute when Sif can't have Thor for one reason or another. I think they're both just basically good friends currently, but I haven't kept up with what they're both doing really.
    When Sif was a just a wee little goddess, she had a magic pony that looked a lot like Bill.

  10. #40
    Spectacular Member Tantalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    Not really 'dated', but as mentioned, Sif was attracted to Bill at the time because he was kinda of a perfect 'Thor-substitute', sans the horse-head-alien thing. Thor at the time still has his Donald Blake persona and stayed on earth, and Loki had also play-acted as Thor kissing Lorelei on purpose to rile Sif, which both her and Thor didn't realize had happened so there was tension there that Thor didn't understand.

    Couple with Bill in his debut both being worthy enough for the hammer, and legitimately beating Thor in a 1 on 1 duel while also saving him, that prolly appealed to Sif at that low point.

    Bill maybe did feel some attraction to Sif, but he was also bothered by a) he was a bio-engineered beast/'man'/cyborg thing and b) he was preoccupied with saving his people first and foremost. Sif did try to make a big heroic sacrifice with Bill's ship Scuttlebutt to save the fleet, but again it was mostly her being kinda nihilistic about being rejected by Thor, rather than anything directly to do with Bill.

    I think Sif did travel with Bill for a while, but I think both of them know that Sif treats Bill like a Thor substitute when Sif can't have Thor for one reason or another. I think they're both just basically good friends currently, but I haven't kept up with what they're both doing really.
    Thanks for explaining it to me!

    If you read Walter Simonson's iconic run (the one that invented Beta Ray Bill), they definitely seemed to be together by the time Surtur was defeated.
    I'll add that to my list. Thanks!

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Simpson's run is on Marvel Unlimited and collected in an omnibus of 5ish volumes that's currently being reprinted and relatively affordable.
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