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  1. #1
    Mighty Member TheSupernaut's Avatar
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    Default So was it really editorial meddling this whole time?

    You know how we all thought TPTB wouldn't let Peter and Mary Jane be together, even if Dan Slott wanted them to be. Well with Nick Spencer finally making them a couple again, does it mean it was all BS? Did we get 10 years of the Pete and MJ dancing around eachother because Slott didn't want to write them as a couple as opposed to editorial being vehemently against it like we've been told?
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  2. #2
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Editorial said they can't be married. And Slott didn't want to write them as a couple if they weren't married.

    Spencer thought there was an editorial decree that they couldn't be in a romantic relationship and was told by Joe Quesada that there was not.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Yeah, the only editorial mandate in place was that they couldn't be married, Slott has even mentioned himself how they could be a couple, he just didn't want to write that because he thought it would be uninteresting if they weren't married.

    Also something else interesting to remember that Slott has also mentioned when talking about these editorial mandates, despite them not being able to get married, One More Day can still be resolved/undone if a writer decides to do that. And given some of the foreshadowing in Spencer's issues, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he may be doing.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Yeah, the only editorial mandate in place was that they couldn't be married, Slott has even mentioned himself how they could be a couple, he just didn't want to write that because he thought it would be uninteresting if they weren't married.

    Also something else interesting to remember that Slott has also mentioned when talking about these editorial mandates, despite them not being able to get married, One More Day can still be resolved/undone if a writer decides to do that. And given some of the foreshadowing in Spencer's issues, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he may be doing.
    Here’s how you do it: you have Peter start to remember flashes of his wedding to MJ and he also starts to remember the OMD “deal” he made. He summons Mephisto and undoes the deal somehow (maybe with some help from Dr Strange). MJ remembers their married life as well. But so much time has passed since the deal was originally struck. And in that time they’ve drifted apart and built separate lives. So even though they still love each other and remember their marriage, they decide to continue as they are for now. So no more deal with the devil, but the marriage is still over... for now. (As for OMIT (One Moment In Time)... we just pretend that whole story was fake memories created by Mephisto’s magic)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Here’s how you do it: you have Peter start to remember flashes of his wedding to MJ and he also starts to remember the OMD “deal” he made. He summons Mephisto and undoes the deal somehow (maybe with some help from Dr Strange). MJ remembers their married life as well. But so much time has passed since the deal was originally struck. And in that time they’ve drifted apart and built separate lives.
    MJ tells Peter in OMD their love would eventually survive "no matter what Mephisto did to them", that implies the only reason they drifted apart was because of Mephisto's magic. If they were in character from the beginning of OMD, they wouldn't have split at all.

    The best explanation they're able to get back together so easily now is due to the events of Damnation diminishing Mephisto's power base. Don't forget Spencer had a hand in that event's plot.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 09-19-2018 at 10:54 AM.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Here’s how you do it: you have Peter start to remember flashes of his wedding to MJ and he also starts to remember the OMD “deal” he made. He summons Mephisto and undoes the deal somehow (maybe with some help from Dr Strange). MJ remembers their married life as well. But so much time has passed since the deal was originally struck. And in that time they’ve drifted apart and built separate lives. So even though they still love each other and remember their marriage, they decide to continue as they are for now. So no more deal with the devil, but the marriage is still over... for now. (As for OMIT (One Moment In Time)... we just pretend that whole story was fake memories created by Mephisto’s magic)
    I feel like that's probably what it's gonna be, they defeat Mephisto, regain all their memories of being married, and then continue on with their lives. Think of it like Superman Reborn, but instead of the whole world being effected, just them two are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    MJ tells Peter in OMD their love would eventually survive "no matter what Mephisto did to them", that implies the only reason they drifted apart was because of Mephisto's magic. If they were in character from the beginning of OMD, they wouldn't have split at all.

    The best explanation they're able to get back together so easily now is due to the events of Damnation diminishing Mephisto's power base. Don't forget Spencer had a hand in that event's plot.
    While it does make sense as a head cannon, I still don't really like the idea of passing off the poor characterization and bad writing as just "the devil's fault". Especially because we know that wasn't Slott's intention at all. I do think that Damnation will have some effect in Spencer's book, in what exact way we will just have to see.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    While it does make sense as a head cannon, I still don't really like the idea of passing off the poor characterization and bad writing as just "the devil's fault".
    It's not head canon if it's made explicit by MJ on the page.

    Especially because we know that wasn't Slott's intention at all.
    Even Dan's come up with a few get-out-clauses for bad characterisation in his day...remember the alternate double thing from She-Hulk? Or Doctor Strange admitting he lied about chaos magic not existing?
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 09-19-2018 at 12:42 PM.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    It's not head canon if it's made explicit by MJ on the page.

    Even Dan's come up with a few get-out-clauses for bad characterisation in his day...remember the alternate double thing from She-Hulk? Or Doctor Strange admitting he lied about chaos magic not existing?
    I would personally say there's a difference between creating a retcon and using an excuse already stated. Especially after him being so adamant for so long how he wanted nothing to do with OMD, I don't see him using OMD as the reason she was written all over the place.

    Now Spencer I could possibly see doing that, though we'll have to see if he decides to examine or reference their interactions during that period of time.

  9. #9
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Here’s how you do it: you have Peter start to remember flashes of his wedding to MJ and he also starts to remember the OMD “deal” he made. He summons Mephisto and undoes the deal somehow (maybe with some help from Dr Strange). MJ remembers their married life as well. But so much time has passed since the deal was originally struck. And in that time they’ve drifted apart and built separate lives. So even though they still love each other and remember their marriage, they decide to continue as they are for now. So no more deal with the devil, but the marriage is still over... for now. (As for OMIT (One Moment In Time)... we just pretend that whole story was fake memories created by Mephisto’s magic)
    Easier to do if you've read Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider #23, which does establish that Mephisto can actually alter memories.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    What a dumb decree!! They can be together just no marriage. What kind of BS is that??
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  11. #11
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    What a dumb decree!! They can be together just no marriage. What kind of BS is that??
    Maybe the Powers That Be want a more flexible status quo where the characters can be broken up or reconciled at the drop of a hat for maximum creative freedom?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe the Powers That Be want a more flexible status quo where the characters can be broken up or reconciled at the drop of a hat for maximum creative freedom?
    That's precisely what Quesada's motivation was, to free up Peter for other options. Unfortunately, the last decade or so bungled that up spectacularly with unlikeable interests who lacked chemistry, and Felicia had to be lobotomised too so she couldn't fill a familiar role even if we wanted it...and then to top it off, Slott just wasn't that interested in Peter's love life

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    That's precisely what Quesada's motivation was, to free up Peter for other options. Unfortunately, the last decade or so bungled that up spectacularly with unlikeable interests who lacked chemistry, and Felicia had to be lobotomised too so she couldn't fill a familiar role even if we wanted it...and then to top it off, Slott just wasn't that interested in Peter's love life
    So, was it a problem that it was done in the first place or that the creators involved failed to capitalize on the new status quo in a "good" way?

    (Look, I hate the OMD retcon as much as the next Spidey fan in my demographic, but I think it's too simplistic to say that OMD is the root of all problems in the ASM series that have popped up since.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    So, was it a problem that it was done in the first place or that the creators involved failed to capitalize on the new status quo in a "good" way?

    (Look, I hate the OMD retcon as much as the next Spidey fan in my demographic, but I think it's too simplistic to say that OMD is the root of all problems in the ASM series that have popped up since.)
    It was both. Eerything the creators put Peter through afterwards were things that didn't align with how he'd been portrayed by JMS. Peter had outgrown everything they threw at him by that point. If you're going to diminish Peter, do so in a way that doesn't make him look like he's barely thought about MJ since their break-up...unfortunatly for them, JMS had already told that story during the separation angle (and they came back from it stronger than ever), whenever they had to address the elephants in the room, it made for a depressing stampede (Red-Headed Stranger and OMIT spirng to mind), the creators wanted a fun everyman's struggle and underestimated the lasting effect from long-term readers who'd long grown tired of that and been accustomed to a seven year stretch of adulthood..

    The world pre-Miles Morales was a confusing time. A time where Marvel took a look at the existing Ultimate template and figured that was the way to go by adapting it for the entire brand, they thought a single Spider-Man, which had suceeded in Ultimate, could function in 616 once again...but Ultimate Peter's love life benefited from several factors...namely Bendis being interested in it, Kitty Pryde and Peter both being the appropriate age to date, Felicia as the "inappropriate" love interest (played out to perfection when she found out how young Peter was), Gwen as a big sister/sometimes girlfriend, and at the end of it all and sometimes in between, Peter would always go back to Mary Jane.

    Marvel wanted to avoid MJ as the go-to endgame for the longest time after OMD, but also made the mistake of eliminating Felicia as a long-term option also, so there was nothing familiar for the readers to latch on to.

    If they had been together for some of the BND era, not just teased in Spider-Island and then deconstructed during Superior Spider-Man, then things might have been better overall for the initiative. We didn't need to go through some rather dry characters and C-list superheroine to get what we're getting now, however long it lasts.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 09-20-2018 at 12:51 PM.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    So, was it a problem that it was done in the first place or that the creators involved failed to capitalize on the new status quo in a "good" way?

    (Look, I hate the OMD retcon as much as the next Spidey fan in my demographic, but I think it's too simplistic to say that OMD is the root of all problems in the ASM series that have popped up since.)
    I agree with saying that it was a bit of both. It seemed to me they enjoyed teasing the possibilities of Peter getting together with someone rather than actually doing it, which after 100 issues does tend to get a bit tiring. If they had decided to simply not have him try and get together with someone, or pick someone and develop a good relationship with them, I think it would've worked out. Most we got before now was Carlie for a couple issues, before being broken up ASAP, Lien who was pretty much non-existent, and Mockingbird who just barely had a relationship.

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