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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Johnrevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Many of those characters have already had their time leading the team. T'Challa hasn't.

    And as someone who grew up loving T'Challa in his '70s appearances on the team, I feel like he's more than paid his dues as a character.

    Other characters could well fit into the leadership slot but this is just T'Challa's time.
    Again, I don't have troubles with T'challa leading. Learn to read!!!!!!!!!!

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnrevenge View Post
    It's been a small improvement over mediocre and shitty first arc, but it's still has lots of issues. West Coast Avengers #2 was by far much much better (even with Quentin Quire's pressence lmao)
    The dialogue of Ghost Rider and Captain America is too lame, both look like they have escaped from a bad 90's saturday cartoon.
    The headquarter is stupid, I would have rather they returned to the mansion (hopefully another decent Avengers group will appear to take it)
    It's good to see She-Hulk back in her uniform, but I don't like the idea of her embracing becoming dimwitted, it feels too OOC from her. And that "romance scene" with Thor. Yuck!!!!
    The Carol and Tony scene was good (was probably the only decent part of the issue)
    I'm tired of this idea of forcing Black Panther as a core member of the Avengers. There are tons and I mean tons of active Avengers that deserve that "title" more than him (Janet, Wanda, Clint, Pietro, Vision, Sam, Natasha...)
    The funny is that Black Panther was in the old school Avengers...forced, no people having personal issues with 'Black' Panther" hmmm, maybe.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Johnrevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    The funny is that Black Panther was in the old school Avengers...forced, no people having personal issues with 'Black' Panther" hmmm, maybe.
    But there have been more characters with longer and bigger story and pressence in the Avengers than Black Panther. What frustrates me is that Aaron is trying to insist that he is more important than founders like Wasp, Hank Pym or Hulk, or characters whose stories have been strongly tied to the team like Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Quicklsilver or Vision.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnrevenge View Post
    But there have been more characters with longer and bigger story and pressence in the Avengers than Black Panther. What frustrates me is that Aaron is trying to insist that he is more important than founders like Wasp, Hank Pym or Hulk, or characters whose stories have been strongly tied to the team like Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Quicklsilver or Vision.
    Well, Black Panther is at least a much more important Avenger than Hulk (comics Hulk, I mean). Plus as the Avengers' first black member he's been important even to stories he doesn't appear much in. (Eg the Falcon was forced by Gyrich to become an Avenger because the lineup was otherwise all-white and the Panther was not available.)

    The problem is that Aaron, like Hickman, isn't interested in the history of the Avengers at all, treating it mostly as a team of Marvel stars + a few characters he likes personally and ignoring the core supporting cast unless, like T'Challa, they are also stars. But pushing T'Challa as an important Avenger would also make sense in a more Avenger-y book.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Captain M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnrevenge View Post
    But there have been more characters with longer and bigger story and pressence in the Avengers than Black Panther. What frustrates me is that Aaron is trying to insist that he is more important than founders like Wasp, Hank Pym or Hulk, or characters whose stories have been strongly tied to the team like Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Quicklsilver or Vision.
    This.

    It's great to see T'Challa in main Avengers again, he should be part of it since he hadn't for a long time. When I was talking about removing half of the overexposed characters of this roster earlier, I wasn't talking about him at all. He should totally stay. However it's how Aaron treats the situation even before the book came out that is frustrating as an Avengers fan. Like we need more big creators to diminish the relevance of the characters you just listed. It's really frustrating. (Though the only name I don't agree there is Hulk)

    Heck, I wouldn't have even minded Panther leading if the roster actually had some classic Avengers that don't have solo books.

    The male to female characters ratio is also bad. Very bad. Really can't wrap my head around this roster.

  6. #36
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    I think Marvel is trying to turn Avenger into their "Justice League" instead of a place for their lesser used characters to hang out.

    For better or worse.
    Black Panther Discord Server: https://discord.gg/SA3hQerktm

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Captain M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I think Marvel is trying to turn Avenger into their "Justice League" instead of a place for their lesser used characters to hang out.

    For better or worse.
    Looks like it. Really wouldn't have been that big of a deal if they just had another Avengers team for those characters.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnrevenge View Post
    Again, I don't have troubles with T'challa leading. Learn to read!!!!!!!!!!
    I know you're complaining about T'Challa being positioned as a "core Avenger" and part of what Aaron has dubbed a "core 4" but the way that idea has manifested in the book is through Aaron putting T'Challa in charge of the team, by virtue of Tony, Steve and Thor's unanimous vote.

    If they didn't put T'Challa in the chairperson position, he'd just be another team member. You're arguing that other characters deserve that designation of a "core Avenger" more than T'Challa but the only way that would be demonstrated in this particular story is if Tony, Steve and Thor decided that this other Avenger, rather than T'Challa, should be leading the team.

    Then there'd be a different "core 4." So you can't complain about T'Challa's advancement but yet also claim that you have no problem with him leading. The two matters are intertwined.

  9. #39
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    I like the art of this issue from the previous issues of Avengers and it's good to see BP is handling the mantle as the leader of Avengers . But Aaron's way improvising those characters into conversations didn't really change , it really creates a bad taste imo ..... but i am still opposed to this type of roster which kinda of looks inferior to me

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I think Marvel is trying to turn Avenger into their "Justice League" instead of a place for their lesser used characters to hang out.

    For better or worse.
    It's been that way for awhile.

    That's the case Bendis made when he had Spider-Man and Wolverine join the team - if the Justice League is DC's biggest, most popular players, shouldn't the Avengers be the same?

    And now, thanks to the MCU, it's actually hard now to find many characters who aren't far bigger deals than they used to be.

    I mean, at one time having Black Panther as the team leader would have been putting a niche character in the spotlight. Now it's putting a superstar in an obvious lead position.

    And of course Steve, Tony and Thor have become rock stars themselves in a way they previously weren't so it's simply a lot harder now to stock an A-class Avengers team with lesser known characters without excluding characters who really should be there.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Does Carol appear enough on this? Kinda wanted to read it just for David Marquez drawing her again lol.

  12. #42
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    Bendis had a much more balanced lineup. He and Mark Millar pitched it as a Justice League type of team but what actually made it to the page had four stars (Iron Man, Captain America, Spider-Man and Wolverine) and three B/C listers (Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Sentry). It didn't have the classic Avengers supporting cast because Avengers Disassembled was meant to take most of those characters out of the book who had been there too long, but it made Luke in particular into a modern classic Avengers character.

    Another thing about Bendis's lineup at first is that it was not trying to be a super-powerful lineup. Most of the characters were underpowered by Justice League standards.

    Unfortunately since then the idea has emerged that the Avengers should be an all-star team and that they should be Marvel's most powerful lineup. Which I think misunderstands why the Avengers are popular, and winds up overloading the book with characters who have their own books, instead of characters whose destiny is controlled by the writer.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Rumble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It's been that way for awhile.

    That's the case Bendis made when he had Spider-Man and Wolverine join the team - if the Justice League is DC's biggest, most popular players, shouldn't the Avengers be the same?

    And now, thanks to the MCU, it's actually hard now to find many characters who aren't far bigger deals than they used to be.

    I mean, at one time having Black Panther as the team leader would have been putting a niche character in the spotlight. Now it's putting a superstar in an obvious lead position.

    And of course Steve, Tony and Thor have become rock stars themselves in a way they previously weren't so it's simply a lot harder now to stock an A-class Avengers team with lesser known characters without excluding characters who really should be there.
    Yup, the Avengers as the Justice League is nothing new. Like you mentioned, Bendis did it 15 years ago to a degree (popularity based) and Hickman more/less as well (massive roster of heavy hitters). This just seems like the next iteration.

    The borderline passive aggressiveness towards BP is interesting. After 55 years of Avengers, BP is the leader now and that's too soon because there's more "deserving" characters? Like Hawkeye huh? So when will it be acceptable for BP to be leader? Or he can be leader, just as long as it's not leader of this core group of 'popular' characters with solo books? Or just as long as Aaron doesn't praise him up as a leader? What are the parameters for which it's ok for BP to be leader?

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Johnrevenge's Avatar
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    Wow, it's like talking with a wall. I don't have troubles with Black Panther leading the team, it's the way he had been made leader by selling the idea that he had always been a core Avenger, that his presence in the team is more important than the one of founders like Wasp or Hank, or characters whose stories are more tied to the Avengers like Scarlet Witch, Quicklsilver, Hawkeye or Vision, when that has been BS.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    My issue with BP is that its clearly a synergy thing, nothing more.

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