Avengers #8 Review/SPOILERS

[LordUltimus]

Wow, this is not a good look on Carol. "If you want me to apologize for using lethal force, forget it."

I mean.. Carol... you *killed him*. The only reason he's not dead is because he Tony Stark'd his way out of death. You don't have to walk back the reasons you did it, but you could at least apologize for it getting out of hand.

I know that you want characters to be in conflict, but I feel like you should be able to do that without stripping away their humanity.

[gurkle]

Also, one reason I wish writers paid a bit more attention to continuity: it would really be cool to read a story about how T'Challa, after years when he went back and forth between embracing the Avengers and keeping his distance from them, decides that the time has come for him to take an active role in the team and assume leadership. But instead we don't really know his history with the team and what it means for him to become the leader.

It reminds me a bit of how, after the Avengers movie came out, Black Widow had to be on the team but not a single writer mentioned that she used to be Avengers leader. So it seemed like she was just there for movie synergy even though there was an easy way to show there wasn't.

I guess what I'm saying is that writers avoid these continuity references because they think they'll turn off new readers, when I actually think new readers would be more interested in the characters if they knew what their past history with the team had been.

[davew128]

Never been a big fan of BP being a mainstay member, certainly not as a leader. He just doesn't fit right there based on his adjunct type association with the team historically.

[Orbus]

But there have been more characters with longer and bigger story and pressence in the Avengers than Black Panther. What frustrates me is that Aaron is trying to insist that he is more important than founders like Wasp, Hank Pym or Hulk, or characters whose stories have been strongly tied to the team like Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Quicklsilver or Vision.

T'Challa is more important to the Avengers than the Hulk.

Overall You have a point about more traditional Avengers though but that's been the case for well over a decade that these aren't stalwart members of the core team, I don't think we can fault Aaron for that. Most of your examples have served as team leader briefly at some point but other than Hawkeye and maybe Jan I couldn't see any writer realistically having any of those characters leading the team at all let alone over the Black Panther.

It's been that way for awhile.

That's the case Bendis made when he had Spider-Man and Wolverine join the team - if the Justice League is DC's biggest, most popular players, shouldn't the Avengers be the same?

I would argue even before that it was about Marvel's All Stars at least in-universe. It was Busiek's run that I think really cemented the the idea of the big three of Cap, Iron Man and Thor being omnipresent core of the team, a sense of tradition kept certain other popular characters out of the main cast but he used the likes of Spider-Man, Beast and Hulk and frequent guest stars.

He did great work with the B list Avengers like Wanda, Vision, Simon Williams, Hank and Jan etc but he did successfully imprint the idea that of an All Star team that when he briefly changed the roster to Iron Man and some lesser known characters including all of the above there were fan meltdowns. Fans already had the idea that the team was more about the big names all Bendis did was take that that idea to its next logical step. I always suspected that his intention was to draw fans in with the likes of Spider-Man and Wolverine and gradually phase back in more traditional characters which he sorta did but a lot of the events he was working around that time prevented him from doing that in the way he intended.

[UltimateTy]

My issue with BP is that its clearly a synergy thing, nothing more.

It's not like this is the first time Aaron has done something like this. He basically used T'challa in the same position in Original Sin back before a BP movie was even announced.

Almost anybody on this team would get the same complaint so synergy is bad point

[Prof. Warren]

Wow, it's like talking with a wall. I don't have troubles with Black Panther leading the team, it's the way he had been made leader by selling the idea that he had always been a core Avenger, that his presence in the team is more important than the one of founders like Wasp or Hank, or characters whose stories are more tied to the Avengers like Scarlet Witch, Quicklsilver, Hawkeye or Vision, when that has been BS.

No, it's that the point you're making is completely ridiculous.

Nowhere in the issue does anyone say that T'Challa's presence in the team is "more important" than one of the founders. Nowhere.

And they also never say that he was "always" a core Avenger.

If anything, it's the fresh perspective he brings that they welcome. As Cap says, "we need new leadership for a new age."

Their choice is less about honoring the past, and putting someone more tied to the team's history in as chairperson, than it is about forging a new path into the future.

[Prof. Warren]

Wow, this is not a good look on Carol. "If you want me to apologize for using lethal force, forget it."

Except that's not what she says.

If anything, the scene between Tony and Carol just illustrates how stubborn they both are in that they both expect that the other wants them to apologize when neither of them has any intention of doing so. They're both adamant in their individual belief that they were right and they will continue to believe so.

[Prof. Warren]

Also, one reason I wish writers paid a bit more attention to continuity: it would really be cool to read a story about how T'Challa, after years when he went back and forth between embracing the Avengers and keeping his distance from them, decides that the time has come for him to take an active role in the team and assume leadership. But instead we don't really know his history with the team and what it means for him to become the leader.

That may be referenced more as the run goes along. There's nothing in this issue that discounts any of T'Challa's history with the team.

But giving a giant info dump on every in and out of his background with the Avengers isn't really necessary at this juncture.

[Prof. Warren]

Bendis had a much more balanced lineup. He and Mark Millar pitched it as a Justice League type of team but what actually made it to the page had four stars (Iron Man, Captain America, Spider-Man and Wolverine) and three B/C listers (Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Sentry). It didn't have the classic Avengers supporting cast because Avengers Disassembled was meant to take most of those characters out of the book who had been there too long, but it made Luke in particular into a modern classic Avengers character.

Well, the thing is it's a lot tougher to have a "balanced line-up" now that more and more Marvel characters have become big stars either in the movies or Netflix.

Back when Bendis put Luke on the team, it was digging a forgotten character out of mothballs. Now he's huge.

Aaron's got Robbie and Jen for the B/C listers. But at one time, Carol and T'Challa would have also fit that description. Who could have expected we'd ever live in a time when those two would become household names?

[gurkle]

Well, the thing is it's a lot tougher to have a "balanced line-up" now that more and more Marvel characters have become big stars either in the movies or Netflix.

Back when Bendis put Luke on the team, it was digging a forgotten character out of mothballs. Now he's huge.

Aaron's got Robbie and Jen for the B/C listers. But at one time, Carol and T'Challa would have also fit that description. Who could have expected we'd ever live in a time when those two would become household names?

That's why I keep circling back to the idea that the Avengers should not have so many characters with their own books. The All-New, All-Different lineup didn't have many characters who were household names but they all had their own comics, making it very difficult to have character development that felt like more than an add-on to what they were doing in their own comics.

This problem goes all the way back to the beginning of the Avengers and how the comic didn't really work until the heroes with their own features were written out and Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were written in (and then Hank/Jan rejoined after their series got cancelled).

Of course Carol soon won't have her own book any more, but I'm thinking it's sure to get relaunched when her movie comes out, so if Aaron gets a say in how the character is written it won't be for long.

[okiedokiewo]

Wow, this is not a good look on Carol. "If you want me to apologize for using lethal force, forget it."

I mean.. Carol... you *killed him*. The only reason he's not dead is because he Tony Stark'd his way out of death. You don't have to walk back the reasons you did it, but you could at least apologize for it getting out of hand.

I know that you want characters to be in conflict, but I feel like you should be able to do that without stripping away their humanity.

I'm really soured by Carol's characterization in this book. She comes off as incredibly immature and pretty ridiculous. I'd like to see her written more like she is in The Life of Captain Marvel, as she's becoming unlikable here.

I suppose I can hope that that final scene was the last of it, as they all move forward as a team. It's funny, I saw a couple panels, the ones where they were talking about her staying, and I was thrilled. Then I read the full thing and it was...oh. A letdown.

[Vishop]

I'm really soured by Carol's characterization in this book. She comes off as incredibly immature and pretty ridiculous. I'd like to see her written more like she is in The Life of Captain Marvel, as she's becoming unlikable here.

I suppose I can hope that that final scene was the last of it, as they all move forward as a team. It's funny, I saw a couple panels, the ones where they were talking about her staying, and I was thrilled. Then I read the full thing and it was...oh. A letdown.

And now they are making a movie for her on MCU and most MU fans don't even know her background in terms of relationship(i mean physical)

[Vishop]

Well, the thing is it's a lot tougher to have a "balanced line-up" now that more and more Marvel characters have become big stars either in the movies or Netflix.

Back when Bendis put Luke on the team, it was digging a forgotten character out of mothballs. Now he's huge.

Aaron's got Robbie and Jen for the B/C listers. But at one time, Carol and T'Challa would have also fit that description. Who could have expected we'd ever live in a time when those two would become household names?

I don't think Bendis really put him that way especially after Cap died during first and maybe second volume as well(haven't read that volume) ? as well.
Luke was actually the leader of the new avengers as far as i remember

[lordozone]

A clear improvement compared to the mediocre first arc. It's not perfect, but there is character development, and an interesting antagonist who is not a quasi-omnipotent threat more powerful than galactus, with no real caracterisation and who is defeated in 5 pages by Avengers who seem to have now celestial-level powerset.

[Anthony W]

I'm really soured by Carol's characterization in this book. She comes off as incredibly immature and pretty ridiculous. I'd like to see her written more like she is in The Life of Captain Marvel, as she's becoming unlikable here.

I suppose I can hope that that final scene was the last of it, as they all move forward as a team. It's funny, I saw a couple panels, the ones where they were talking about her staying, and I was thrilled. Then I read the full thing and it was...oh. A letdown.

Hopefully the movie can give the comic writers a more likeable character to work with.