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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Well, the thing is it's a lot tougher to have a "balanced line-up" now that more and more Marvel characters have become big stars either in the movies or Netflix.

    Back when Bendis put Luke on the team, it was digging a forgotten character out of mothballs. Now he's huge.

    Aaron's got Robbie and Jen for the B/C listers. But at one time, Carol and T'Challa would have also fit that description. Who could have expected we'd ever live in a time when those two would become household names?
    Eh, it's actually pretty easy if that's what the editors wanted to do. Marvel still has plenty of B-List characters floating around.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnrevenge View Post
    But there have been more characters with longer and bigger story and pressence in the Avengers than Black Panther. What frustrates me is that Aaron is trying to insist that he is more important than founders like Wasp, Hank Pym or Hulk, or characters whose stories have been strongly tied to the team like Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Quicklsilver or Vision.
    I mean this is what he said about BP:


    Black Panther was obvious. If anything, I think the traditional “big three” of the Avengers is pretty much, at this point, the big four. I think Black Panther belongs on the Avengers. And Carol Danvers is not too far away from that either. Just as Black Panther has become an important figure in the eyes of the rest of the world thanks to his movie, Carol’s not far away from that as well.


    And, having Black Panther on the team opens up Wakanda as a destination, a very important part of the Marvel U. I like Carol’s Alpha Flight connection, since they’re the main defenders of the Earth from extra-terrestrial threats. I’ve definitely had some fun playing with those Alpha Flight toys
    Unless there is another interview that states otherwise?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    That's why I keep circling back to the idea that the Avengers should not have so many characters with their own books. The All-New, All-Different lineup didn't have many characters who were household names but they all had their own comics, making it very difficult to have character development that felt like more than an add-on to what they were doing in their own comics.

    This problem goes all the way back to the beginning of the Avengers and how the comic didn't really work until the heroes with their own features were written out and Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were written in (and then Hank/Jan rejoined after their series got cancelled).

    Of course Carol soon won't have her own book any more, but I'm thinking it's sure to get relaunched when her movie comes out, so if Aaron gets a say in how the character is written it won't be for long.
    As far as I'm aware the Kooky Quartet era has always been seen as something between a quirky but fun experiment at best and an aberration at worst. It's probably looked more favorably than something like Justice League Detroit probably due to nostalgia for the Silver Age but the fact that they are linked at all shows that in fans minds those lineups are not seen as what the Avengers should be.

    Sure, the kooky quartet era is better written than what came before but that's largely due to the fact that the early issues of the Avengers were rushed out and it took some time for Jack and Stan to figure out what the book should really be. I reject the idea that you can't have good characterizations and important things happen in a team that contains A-listers with their own books. Most Avengers line ups have had at least one or two and as I mentioned Busiek's run had Cap, Iron Man and Thor front and center for most of it as well frequent guest spots for other big names and was highly regarded apart from when he pulled his own kooky quartet-esque switch when the roster was briefly changed Iron Man and merry band of Hank, Jan, She-Hulk, Carol Danvers and Triathlon. Even now that's still viewed as a bizarre period for the book compared to what came before and after.
    Last edited by Orbus; 09-19-2018 at 05:47 PM.

  4. #64
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    So I don't think it's wrong to turn the Avengers into the Justice League. It's been going that way since Bendis and was something many fans used to want. It always seemed wrong that the Avengers weren't the biggest team at Marvel.

    So, also, Loki getting taken by the Celestials reminds me of how they took Apocalypse, whom we acutely haven't really seen in a very long time.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    As far as I'm aware the Kooky Quartet era has always been seen as something between a quirky but fun experiment at best and an aberration at worst. It's probably looked more favorably than something like Justice League Detroit probably due to nostalgia for the Silver Age but the fact that they are linked at all shows that in fans minds those lineups are not seen as what the Avengers should be.

    Sure, the kooky quartet era is better written than what came before but that's largely due to the fact that the early issues of the Avengers were rushed out and it took some time for Jack and Stan to figure out what the book should really be. I reject the idea that you can't have good characterizations and important things happen in a team that contains A-listers with their own books.
    Well, even after the Kooky Quartet was no longer a quartet, Stan Lee refused to allow the Avengers to have star names and even made Roy Thomas take Captain America off the active lineup. Thomas has talked about how he wanted to bring back Iron Man and Thor and Stan made him use Hercules instead of Thor. But Thomas managed to bring the Big Three back as guest stars so many times that it sort of seemed like they were part of the lineup even though they technically weren't (until near the end of the run, when Thomas got more editing power and immediately brought them back).

    I agree that the Avengers can't just be a bunch of B and C listers and that Stan's rule - no stars on the regular Avengers team - was going too far, but I do think the star characters have mostly been decoration. Even in the Busiek run where they got a lot of promotional value from having the Big Three on the team, they didn't really do a whole lot except fight. The stars give weight and purpose to the lineup, like Batman gave the Justice League International run some cred, but the stories are weighted heavily toward the secondary characters.

    Most Avengers line ups have had at least one or two and as I mentioned Busiek's run had Cap, Iron Man and Thor front and center for most of it as well frequent guest spots for other big names and was highly regarded apart from when he pulled his own kooky quartet-esque switch when the roster was briefly changed Iron Man and merry band of Hank, Jan, She-Hulk, Carol Danvers and Triathlon. Even now that's still viewed as a bizarre period for the book compared to what came before and after.
    It was a weird lineup change because, as even the comic itself pointed out, most Avengers lineup changes are festive occasions and this one was depressing and had the whole team almost falling to pieces.

    The version of the team in Busiek's fourth and fifth years is also in some ways the ancestor of the modern Avengers lineups of Hickman and others. Busiek and Brevoort dropped the idea of having a limited, rotating Avengers lineup and switched to a huge Avengers lineup with multiple teams in the field. Because of who was writing it it was still heavily oriented toward "classic" Avengers but it was actually quite non-traditional.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Eh, it's actually pretty easy if that's what the editors wanted to do. Marvel still has plenty of B-List characters floating around.
    Sure, but how many of them do you want to stock the core Avengers book with?

    And if you're avoiding putting big characters on a team just to satisfy the grousers who want to whine about too many popular characters being on a book - is that really a good reason to do it?

  7. #67
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    Jenifer and her attitude towards the she hulk baffles me; and i’m Wondering what happened to give Robbie control over the ghost rider, and why the other avengers aren’t giving him the side eye.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protege View Post
    Jenifer and her attitude towards the she hulk baffles me
    Aaron wrote it.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  9. #69
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    I wont lie the celestial stuff bored me to no end, but I loved the lineup Strange included. Sad to see him go but love that Aaron left room in for him to pop up whenever needed and that T'Challa walked him out so to speak.

  10. #70
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    Oh Avengers 8. I wonder if Aaron has figured out the difference between Thor and Hercules yet. "Grrgh, where are the latrines?! Thor must dispose of mead! This damned place is like a minotaur's labyrinth! Curse those damned Celestials!" Nope, he hasn't. I'm calling it. We will never see Thor and Hercules together in this Avengers run, because Aaron will not know how to tell them apart.

    Ghost Rider comes off well because the bar is set very low and there isn't a lot to mess up.

    She-Hulk is not the Hulk. Aaron seems determined to smash that square peg into that round hole. I feel sorry for fans of that character.

    Black Panther seemed okay until I got to this..."Though I'm afraid I've never put much faith in the grand plans of the gods or other entities on high. I prefer to make my own" Because he is Batman!....oh no he isn't. He is Black Panther and its kind of stupid for him to say that because homeboy actually believes in a Panther God and that when he dies he joins his panther ancestors which counts as a "grand plan".

    The damage to Captain Marvel was done long before this title. Credit where credit is due. Aaron is doing a good job with this character. I like how Captain Marvel says she won't be a backup dancer after she herself reduced Alpha Flight to mere backup dancers. FREE ALPHA FLIGHT!

    By the way can someone tell me how Atlanteans lose to goons wielding basic machine guns? Aren't they from one of the most technologically advanced races in the Marvel Universe? They ruptured the hull of one of the ships....then they just decide to crawl on the ship to attack with just bladed weapons and get shot? Everyone on that ship should have been dead.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 09-20-2018 at 01:06 AM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  11. #71
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Overall impression, this felt a little bit like a cartoon in tone. Not a bad thing, but not really what I am looking for in an ongoing. But then I am a hard sell on The Avengers. I have to be really into it to care about the story. Hickman probably made me read more Avengers than I ever did in the past. In general big hitting team books don't grab me and if I want a team book I go X.

    There is a return to the King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table theme here, which I guess fits alongside the mythological themes of the run so far. This is not original for comic team books, but it is kind of a classic set-up and it lends a certain weight to things. The empty chair motief is ripped straight from Mallory, perhaps we will see it used in interesting ways after a few rotations. Round Table themes always make me wonder if the plan is to go all-in for a tragic final act down the line.

    The look of the book is astonishingly good. Not sure how all the mottled textures look on paper, but as a digital reader everything looks gorgeous. I love the new look for Namor, and that early, large panel Captain America was very impressive.

    Still on board for now.

  12. #72
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    So I don't think it's wrong to turn the Avengers into the Justice League. It's been going that way since Bendis and was something many fans used to want. It always seemed wrong that the Avengers weren't the biggest team at Marvel.

    So, also, Loki getting taken by the Celestials reminds me of how they took Apocalypse, whom we acutely haven't really seen in a very long time.
    Indeed this is a clear creative choice. Inevitably it will fly in the face of some who insist this isn't how Avengers books should be, but it's not their book.

    The disconnect here is that some are arguing it is wrong, and in order to do that they are putting words in Aaron's mouth. He isn't saying that classic members of time gone by are less important. He isn't saying this is the only way to put together an Avengers book, or that this is the perfect roster. He is simply saying that for the current audience, informed by the way the movies focused on the early days of the MU and the Ultimates, and informed by the biggest properties at Marvel today, this roster feels right for his story.

  13. #73
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    I have no problem with BP leading the Avengers, he's been involved with the team for a VERY long time. I'm actually surprised it took so long. And given the sales of the last Avengers volume, I can see why Marvel is treating the Avengers like the Justice League, times have changed and with the popularity of the MCU, it only makes sense to build the team around the most popular (and powerful) characters.

    I have a problem with the way Aaron is writing Thor, Thor is boisterous but he's not crass, I've always seen him as someone that carries himself with more dignity because he's not a barbarian and he's certainly not the viking (a point that Thor has made in the comics in the past) that he's been made out to be here.

    I have a very big problem with Carol and Tony's interaction. Carol nearly killed him and she's asking for an apology?? Who does that?? I think that relationship should be handled with more nuance considering everything's that happened between them. I also find Tony constantly making passes at her very unsettling, he's known Carol for a very, very long time so what's with the sudden aggression?

    I like the new Avengers base and I like that Aaron gave an explanation to She-Hulk's new power level (a character suddenly being more powerful than before for story purposes is bad and inconsistent writing). The thing with the Atlanteans was a bit weird though, I didn't know they were that easy to kill.
    Last edited by Username taken; 09-20-2018 at 01:38 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Also, one reason I wish writers paid a bit more attention to continuity: it would really be cool to read a story about how T'Challa, after years when he went back and forth between embracing the Avengers and keeping his distance from them, decides that the time has come for him to take an active role in the team and assume leadership. But instead we don't really know his history with the team and what it means for him to become the leader.

    It reminds me a bit of how, after the Avengers movie came out, Black Widow had to be on the team but not a single writer mentioned that she used to be Avengers leader. So it seemed like she was just there for movie synergy even though there was an easy way to show there wasn't.

    I guess what I'm saying is that writers avoid these continuity references because they think they'll turn off new readers, when I actually think new readers would be more interested in the characters if they knew what their past history with the team had been.
    I think you are in danger of over-thinking this issue. At the heart of it you seem to distrust movie synergy but we all know it's going to happen. There is no need to view it cynically when the movies themselves were so heavily informed by the comics.

    As to continuity (canon would be a better choice of word here) there is only so much space in a modern comic to spend time telling those fans that do care about things they already know. Instead this kind of thing is done by the odd knowing reference. Strangely the writer that does this most effectively, Bendis, is always criticised for it, so maybe readers would rather the writers didn't do it afterall.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I have a problem with the way Aaron is writing Thor, Thor is boisterous but he's not crass, I've always seen him as someone that carries himself with more dignity because he's not a barbarian and he's certainly not the viking (a point that Thor has made in the comics in the past) that he's been made out to be here.
    Just pretend that he is Hercules with a hammer, but if I'm being honest even that is getting harder to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I have a very big problem with Carol and Tony's interaction. Carol nearly killed him and she's asking for an apology?? Who does that?? I think that relationship should be handled with more nuance considering everything's that happened between them. I also find Tony constantly making passes at her very unsettling, he's known Carol for a very, very long time so what's with the sudden aggression?
    He was also one of the first people to realize that Carol had a drinking problem and got her to an AA meeting, but Aaron seems to be going with just movie characterization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I like the new Avengers base and I like that Aaron gave an explanation to She-Hulk's new power level (a character suddenly being more powerful than before for story purposes is bad and inconsistent writing). The thing with the Atlanteans was a bit weird though, I didn't know they were that easy to kill.
    Me neither.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

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