Avengers #8 Review/SPOILERS

[Tony Stark]

I have a very big problem with Carol and Tony's interaction. Carol nearly killed him and she's asking for an apology?? Who does that?? I think that relationship should be handled with more nuance considering everything's that happened between them. I also find Tony constantly making passes at her very unsettling, he's known Carol for a very, very long time so what's with the sudden aggression?

I agree with this 100%. Tony should call her out on what happened and get everything out in the open. Bendis ACTUALLY did a really great job of going into Carols and Tony's relationship and why he would flirt with her during the Civil War 2 tie-ins off Invincible Iron Man.

[JKtheMac]

I have written far too much about why the depiction of Thor as compared to the depiction of Hurc is nothing to be converned about, given that Herc is technically a mirror of Thor. It seems my reassurances fall on deaf ears. It's become a stick to beat the writer with and I don't trust sticks.

What I will say is Aaron has clearly decided to use Thor for Bathos in this issue. The whole point of bathetic humour is to undercut the grand and epic, and ground it. It is used a lot in the MCU. Some argue it is what has made the MCU successful and accessible to a wider audience. Some hate it.

Marvel as a publisher seem to be pushing for comics that better reflect the MCU. Take for example moving Bendis onto Iron Man a few years ago. The promise was that they would bring us a Tony Stark more like the movies. If that was an actual aim they failed dismally. They probably confused general quippyness with bathos, but it suggests that the editors at Marvel are asking writers to try and do 'that movie thing' and perhaps don't know what they want.

In this particular issue we have a number of instances of humour that seek to juxtapose the grand and epic sweep of comic canon. Most notably Stark wanting the 'top bunk' (reducing the grand setting to a kids bedroom), Stark referring to sexual tension with Carol (juxtaposing a lethal fight with a meet cute), and Thor looking for the toilets (undercutting the high concept base of operations with the need for bodily functions). The latter is pure bathos.

It is not unprecedented to dislike bathos. Indeed the term is a disputed one because it was originally a negative criticism and implied that it was unintentional. A failed reach for the sublime unintentionally undercut by a poor choice of theme or tone. Nowadays comedians and script writers use it deliberately as a method of juxtaposing the epic with the trivial and base. It is funny. Some think of it as a cheap laugh. Used well it isn't cheap. It has a purpose. The undercutting of overly lofty themes to remind us this is not supposed to be taken too seriously.

There lies the rub. Many comic book fans do take things very seriously. They want Thor to be serious.

[Username taken]

Just pretend that he is Hercules with a hammer, but if I'm being honest even that is getting harder to do.

Yeah, it's starting to grate.

He was also one of the first people to realize that Carol had a drinking problem and got her to an AA meeting, but Aaron seems to be going with just movie characterization.

Exactly. Tony and Carol have had a very long standing friendship and have been through a lot together. Tony all of a sudden making passes at her reads as weird and just portrays him as creepy and not funny (as Aaron likely intended it). Tony Stark should be a far more mature character than what we are getting here. Funny thing is that MCU Tony Stark hasn't actually "lived that life" since he became Iron Man.

[Tony Stark]

Exactly. Tony and Carol have had a very long standing friendship and have been through a lot together. Tony all of a sudden making passes at her reads as weird and just portrays him as creepy and not funny (as Aaron likely intended it). Tony Stark should be a far more mature character than what we are getting here. Funny thing is that MCU Tony Stark hasn't actually "lived that life" since he became Iron Man.

Well stated. As I stated before Bendis did a really good breakdown of their relationship in his Iron Man run. Tony even goes into why he would flirt with her and she admits why she use to flirt with him

[Killerbee911]

My issue with BP is that its clearly a synergy thing, nothing more.

Yeah I mean Black Panther wasn't in the Illuminati and Ultimates,and Black Panther isn't show to be power broker in Marvel.

[JKtheMac]

Yeah I mean Black Panther wasn't in the Illuminati and Ultimates,and Black Panther isn't show to be power broker in Marvel.

On the other hand Hickman's New Avengers arc was entirely predicated on Black Panther calling together the Illuminati. His choice and his repercussions. If Hickman hadn't course corrected to make Secret Wars more focused upon the end of the Fantasic Four we can pretty much guarantee that T'Challa would have had more focus on Battleworld, given what was being set up.

[Merrik]

Loved it. Loved the explanation for She-Hulk's characterization in the last story arc, loved her attitude towards it, embracing it fully (it's kind of a cross characterization between Jen and She-Hulk there, because even though the character has evolved from just the solid team player in the 80's-00's to a developed smart team leader in the pages of books like A-Force and with teams like Lady Liberators, there's always going to be a part of her that just goes with it and will deal with the consequences later... hell... even Dan Slott had an entire issue built around that premise during his days on She-Hulk's book).

And I am HERE for a She-Hulk/Thor pairing.

I picked up my first comic in the mid 80's. It was an Avengers book. She-Hulk and Thor were in it. In my limited knowledge as a child lol, I was like "she's awesome and strong and he's awesome and strong, are they dating?" and it's taken 30+ years to get to this point, but I'm thrilled about it. I've seen these two as a logical choice for decades. Don't know what the hell Byrne ever thought throwing Herc into the mix and having Jen moon like a school girl for years. Even if it doesn't play out, the little bit of flirty chemistry they had in this issue was enough to convince me that Aaron could write a cool relationship between the two. I'm excited to see if it goes somewhere of if it's just a couple of issues.

Black Panther leading the team? My only question is what the hell took so long? Black Panther has been an amazing character in The Avengers on and off for FIFTY years (this year actually). Loooooong before the movie he was one of my favorite characters (the first storyline I ever read that had him in it was the Korvac Saga as my uncle had those issues and I read them when I was a kid), he's a brilliant leader, a powerful force on the world stage, it makes perfect sense and it makes a perfect storyline for some conflict. I honestly believe that if Geoff Johns had stayed on the book longer back when he wrote it, he would've eventually had T'Challa take on the role of leader.

As for everything else, not really any complaints. Love the roster. I've always been a fan of B-Listers more myself, so was a fan of She-Hulk (my favorite character), Black Panther, Carol and Ghost Rider(s) long before most of them became household names due to the MCU, so it's like most of my favorites have ended up on the team at one point and they're all kick-ass powerful amazing characters with distinct personalities that can work well together or clash really well.

I do hope a little bit is explored with She-Hulk/Carol/Tony. She did end up in a coma, Carol assumed she took her side in the entire events, Carol led the advance against her cousin etc. etc. It'd be nice if they aired that out a bit.

I'm along for the ride.

[Username taken]

On the other hand Hickman's New Avengers arc was entirely predicated on Black Panther calling together the Illuminati. His choice and his repercussions. If Hickman hadn't course corrected to make Secret Wars more focused upon the end of the Fantasic Four we can pretty much guarantee that T'Challa would have had more focus on Battleworld, given what was being set up.

I think Killerbee was being sarcastic

[JKtheMac]

I think Killerbee was being sarcastic

And my point is not undermining his is it? Or does everything have to be an argumentative counterpoint? It’s an ‘on the other hand’ and is by its very nature additive.

He didn’t say he was the pivotal character in the last high profile story so I did.

[Raye]

moving past the leadership and headquarter discussion (I'm fine with it) and Thor and She-hulk (less fine, but we'll see) I'm just gonna re-post this bit of speculation I posted in the Loki thread since I don't think anyone there is actually reading Immortal Hulk besides me and Silver, so this bit of speculation is probably more relevant here. Just keep in mind this was originally in the Loki thread so that's why it's so focused on him.

Avengers, it kind of hammered home some more that he did all this to get the team together, so that was good, and some hints about why it had to be THIS team. I was a bit disappointed he got kidnapped by Celestials, though. I was just kind of hoping Black Panther or Cap, maybe even Strange, could see what he was really doing there, even if Thor can't because of all their baggage. But his dialogue did present some interesting possibilities. It seems like he is preparing them for something Hulk related. his dialogue, "... from beyond the raw void between dimensions. Eyes of night and nuclear decay and all the colors of rage." is most likely a reference to Hulk, specifically to what Ewing is doing over in Immortal Hulk, where it is setting up "the green door" and setting up Hulking out as more of a possession from "across the void" by "the one below all", rather than a purely physical change caused by radiation. And then Carol got involved this week, with hunting down Bruce, and she brought the Avengers along. Yeah, i think we're looking at a likely Immortal Hulk/Avengers crossover, probably one much larger than a guest appearance in Immortal Hulk if Loki's dialogue is anything to go by. If Loki joins the team when the Celestials presumably bring him back, that could mean Ewing would be writing him again for the duration of the crossover, as well. The team in hulk right now is Loki free, but it may be that they need to come back for a round 2. But this does fit with what was going on with Jen. It's entirely possible Loki decided it needed to be this team, with these members, on order to get the right people to examine Jen to figure out what's going on, and to be able to go toe to toe with a bunch of pissed off Hulks.

And then:

Anyway, I was thinking more about the Hulk thing. And remember this?


I mean, I'm just saying... The Hulks Loki created for Agger could come back into play, here. This upcoming Hulk.... thing... could be WHY Loki created them. Especially since we just saw that Roxxon is the catalyst for the Atlantean uprising. Like, a bunch of Atlanteans attack Roxxon, so does Agger pull out his viking hulks to fight them off? Does Loki take control of them again now? And it's especially weird having another look at that, since a proto-Sasquatch/Tanaraq is on there as well, and who is guest starring in the Immortal Hulk right now? freaking Sasquatch.

That cave panting does seem to make Namor more likely as a potential new teammate, though. I keep waffling on that. but, on the other hand, they do still need an 'Agamotto' so...

TLDR; Loki was clearly (to the readers, not to the characters) warning them about the One Below All from Immortal Hulk, so there is a likely crossover brewing, and the stuff with Jen likely plays into that. If the Hulk transformation is more of a possession from a being in another dimension, then it could explain radical personality shift when hulked out, Bruce has had several over the years, if the specific being possessing them changes.

[ed2962]

Sure, but how many of them do you want to stock the core Avengers book with?

And if you're avoiding putting big characters on a team just to satisfy the grousers who want to whine about too many popular characters being on a book - is that really a good reason to do it?

I would use the old formula... 2or 3 big names, 2 or 3 B-listers, and maybe 1 outlier.

[Prof. Warren]

Exactly. Tony and Carol have had a very long standing friendship and have been through a lot together. Tony all of a sudden making passes at her reads as weird and just portrays him as creepy and not funny (as Aaron likely intended it). Tony Stark should be a far more mature character than what we are getting here. Funny thing is that MCU Tony Stark hasn't actually "lived that life" since he became Iron Man.

Tony's not making a serious pass at Carol here. He's undercutting the seriousness of the moment with a joke. Which may not be technically "mature" of him but he's definitely not being creepy and he's not actually coming on to her.

[Ezyo1000]

Oh Avengers 8. I wonder if Aaron has figured out the difference between Thor and Hercules yet. "Grrgh, where are the latrines?! Thor must dispose of mead! This damned place is like a minotaur's labyrinth! Curse those damned Celestials!" Nope, he hasn't. I'm calling it. We will never see Thor and Hercules together in this Avengers run, because Aaron will not know how to tell them apart.

Ghost Rider comes off well because the bar is set very low and there isn't a lot to mess up.

She-Hulk is not the Hulk. Aaron seems determined to smash that square peg into that round hole. I feel sorry for fans of that character.

Black Panther seemed okay until I got to this..."Though I'm afraid I've never put much faith in the grand plans of the gods or other entities on high. I prefer to make my own" Because he is Batman!....oh no he isn't. He is Black Panther and its kind of stupid for him to say that because homeboy actually believes in a Panther God and that when he dies he joins his panther ancestors which counts as a "grand plan".

The damage to Captain Marvel was done long before this title. Credit where credit is due. Aaron is doing a good job with this character. I like how Captain Marvel says she won't be a backup dancer after she herself reduced Alpha Flight to mere backup dancers. FREE ALPHA FLIGHT!

By the way can someone tell me how Atlanteans lose to goons wielding basic machine guns? Aren't they from one of the most technologically advanced races in the Marvel Universe? They ruptured the hull of one of the ships....then they just decide to crawl on the ship to attack with just bladed weapons and get shot? Everyone on that ship should have been dead.

I didn't find what he said particularly off. He never said he doesn't believe in gods. And with him saying I prefer to make my own makes perfect sense as well because that's what he does and, based on the events prior to Hickmans NA and what has come from the Solo, Bast is nowhere to be found at all and the last we saw of her was when she made him KotD and said bad things are coming then peaced out, never to be seen again for YEAR'S.

[Username taken]

Nevermind.

[Username taken]

Tony's not making a serious pass at Carol here. He's undercutting the seriousness of the moment with a joke. Which may not be technically "mature" of him but he's definitely not being creepy and he's not actually coming on to her.

This is what? the second time he's saying something like that to Carol? Like I said, it's intended to be funny but it really isn't.

Given their history (and the fact that Civil War 2 happened over the death of Tony's best friend and her lover that's recently been resurrected) it comes across as inappropriate.