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  1. #91
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post

    As for the topic itself Super Returns is a boring movie, I don't care whatever flaws MoS it has probably the best action set piece in any superman movie and is cutting two scenes away from being one of better superman movie imo
    To me that is the biggest sin of Superman Returns. Superman should never be boring and SR was beyond boring.

  2. #92
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Just to be clear. My feelings on the matter are that Man of Steel was a gorgeous film that had great casting, but had little new to offer other than the introduction of the World Engine. Too many elements taken from one source make it either a ripoff or a remake. So calling it innovative might be a stretch. Labeling it original is just plain ignorant. Since it was such a beautiful piece of work, I can understand why some prefer it. But all that glitters is not gold, so I'm glad Cavill stepped away from the role. I just hope DC keeps trying, and that when they do, the makers they work with can learn from what did or didn't work this time.

    I'm also pretty sure that I can enjoy what comes after this. Until MS and BS, the only Superman portrayal I straight up did not like was Superman VI the Quest for Peace. But while I hated that (and feel no need to expand on why), I don't hate MS. It's just that if a film about a character I have consistently loved in every medium doesn't grab me after repeated viewings separated by years, something ain't right. All I can do is try to explain why. You can talk till you're blue in the face, but I'll never change my mind about either the film or my reasons.

    I really do wish it weren't the case. I truly wanted to like this series.

  3. #93
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    So you have trouble differentiating between canon and formula, and between homage and a remake. Got it. Deniiiial...
    Nah, unless you're saying that this:

    Ship.jpg

    is a remake rather than a homage.

    (in case the image doesn't work, it's the scene I mentioned earlier where Kal's ship escaping Krypton is recounted by the Jor-conscience on the scout ship and is depicted as the spikey object it was in STM)

    Canon-wise, the general rule is, as succinctly put in All Star:

    Doomed Planet
    Desperate Scientists
    Last Hope
    Kindly Couple


    Whether Clark was bullied growing up (as in MoS, a little in Smallville and some allusion in STM but not in Lois & Clark) or was more of an outsider (STM mostly, and alluded to in Adventures) or did any rescues as a child/teen (as in MoS, Animated Series and Smallville but nothing direct/tangible in STM or Lois & Clark) is all down to whatever the production team decides to do and certainly isn't 'canon'.

    Anyway, best to just leave it there and agree to disagree with regards to terminology.

  4. #94
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    The pod may have been revisited in cartoon form. But I don't think so in live action until the Supergirl series.
    It was used in Lois & Clark but had an orb rather than a crystal.

    In Smallville, a piece of the rocket provided Clark with access to a fortress that had an AI but not in hologram form.

  5. #95
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Nah, unless you're saying that this:

    Ship.jpg

    is a remake rather than a homage.

    (in case the image doesn't work, it's the scene I mentioned earlier where Kal's ship escaping Krypton is recounted by the Jor-conscience on the scout ship and is depicted as the spikey object it was in STM)

    Canon-wise, the general rule is, as succinctly put in All Star:

    Doomed Planet
    Desperate Scientists
    Last Hope
    Kindly Couple


    Whether Clark was bullied growing up (as in MoS, a little in Smallville and some allusion in STM but not in Lois & Clark) or was more of an outsider (STM mostly, and alluded to in Adventures) or did any rescues as a child/teen (as in MoS, Animated Series and Smallville but nothing direct/tangible in STM or Lois & Clark) is all down to whatever the production team decides to do and certainly isn't 'canon'.

    Anyway, best to just leave it there and agree to disagree with regards to terminology.
    I could counterpoint you here, but I would just be repeating what you've already chosen to ignore, only to have you pretend not to understand the significance of it. But it's because you choose not to. So you are welcome to your bliss. Enjoy it. I can only assume your continued appreciation of MS hinges on it somehow.

    Can't imagine why that should be.
    Last edited by thetrellan; 10-12-2018 at 11:11 AM.

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    I have to say this but not having action set pieces does not make a film boring. IMO Superman Returns isn't boring and if I'm honest it's my 3rd favorite Superman live action film.

    Superman 1978 is perfection to me.

    Superman II is my number two (I love the Donner cut but since they had to use the same ending as Superman 78 I give the theatrical cut the win).

    Superman Returns (I think it's a good look at Superman dealing with returning home after being away and learning if the world really needs a Superman. Also Lex plan to replace most of America with a continent made partially of Kryptonite is actually quite brilliant.).

    Superman III (This film is like watching a movie on cable in the old days switching channels between a Superman movie and a Richard Pryor film. While they might blend well the Superman stuff is good on it's own as is the Pryor stuff so I like it.).

    Justice League (I enjoyed the Superman Stuff and only wish there was more).

    Superman IV Quest for Peace (Save the Boos and eggs and I'll explain in the next entry).

    Batman V Superman (Sadly what I like about this film is Batman's story and also Lex is basically Lenny from Quest from Peace grown up and "Doomsday" is Nuclear Man 2.0 so Quest for Peace wins because it has Christopher Reeve, Gene Hackman, and Margot Kidder. Also seeing where our world is with Clickbait media seeing Perry fight to keep the Planet a real newspaper and not a tabloid makes my heart warm while DCEU Perry was kind of dumb in BvS.).

    Man of Steel (It's a well made film and well crafted story I can see why anyone would make this their number one but sadly I just hate this interpretation of the character so I never rewatch every time I try I end up turning it off and it's the only Superman film I can say that about so it's last.).
    Last edited by Jokerz79; 10-12-2018 at 04:21 PM.

  7. #97
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    Superman Returns was just nostalgia wanking than an actual film.

    Who thinks for Superman Returns, Nolan did it better with his Batman films as at least he rebooted the Batman franchise and made actual films that weren't copying Burton's films but made his own? Singer should had done the same thing and at least Man of Steel tried to do it's own thing. Superman IS NOT Batman! DCEU learned all the wrong lessons from Nolan's Batman just like how some 90s comics took the wrong lessons from Alan Moore, Frank Miller and Katsuhiro Otomo.
    Last edited by TomServofan; 11-26-2018 at 07:23 AM.

  8. #98
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomServofan View Post
    Superman Returns was just nostalgia wanking than an actual film.

    Who thinks for Superman Returns, Nolan did it better with his Batman films as at least he rebooted the Batman franchise and made actual films that weren't copying Burton's films but made his own? Singer should had done the same thing and at least Man of Steel tried to do it's own thing. Superman IS NOT Batman! DCEU learned all the wrong lessons from Nolan's Batman just like how some 90s comics took the wrong lessons from Alan Moore, Frank Miller and Katsuhiro Otomo.
    I believe you're on the nose when you say the wrong lessons were learned from Nolan.

    The biggest difference between Nolan's and Burton's Batman wasn't just that Nolan discarded the color and campiness. He took inspiration from Frank Miller and Denny O'Neil instead of the 60s show, and focused on aspects and villains that would be new to most viewers.

    MS was the least original film of all. The only thing new it added was an extraterraforming machine. Otherwise it was the first two Superman films from the 1980s, stripped of humor and the Lex Luthor element. It even had an encounter with the asshat and Clark Kent at the remote bar and grill from Superman II. And Clark used his powers to get even, just like in Superman II. Look past the surface. It's laughable that anyone says MS was original. All of the plot points came from Donner!

    And before anyone repeats the same old tired argument that many of those elements would be seen in a Superman reboot? There's a huge difference between making use of canon and regurgitating the last successful effort made. Only a small few of the 16 elements I've counted in common between MS and the original were used on TV's many Superman debuts.

    At least Returns had an original plot. I maintain that both Man of Steel and Superman Returns made the simple mistake of using the 80s movies as a formula. But the old jokes and musical scores have been played out over 40 years, and anyone hoping for a truly new vision after that was sorely disappointed. Even had MS been advertised as the remake it was, I think it would have fallen flat. Fault for this lies not with either of the film's directors, but with whoever was pulling the strings. They should have ignored the old series completely and given us something new instead.
    Last edited by thetrellan; 12-11-2018 at 07:30 PM.

  9. #99
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    Does the taking the wrong lessons thing remind anyone of 90s comics?

  10. #100
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomServofan View Post
    Does the taking the wrong lessons thing remind anyone of 90s comics?
    Maybe not 90's Superman (at least not early-90's), but comics in general? Oh, absolutely!
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomServofan View Post
    Superman Returns was just nostalgia wanking than an actual film.

    Who thinks for Superman Returns, Nolan did it better with his Batman films as at least he rebooted the Batman franchise and made actual films that weren't copying Burton's films but made his own? Singer should had done the same thing and at least Man of Steel tried to do it's own thing. Superman IS NOT Batman! DCEU learned all the wrong lessons from Nolan's Batman just like how some 90s comics took the wrong lessons from Alan Moore, Frank Miller and Katsuhiro Otomo.
    What is it that was seen in the DCEU that Batman has a patent on? It isn't like the idea of a hero feeling unsure of himself is something Batman invented and that happens more with Superman than Batman.

  12. #102
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but I will never get in any way how Cavill's Superman is anything remotely like any version of "dark" Batman. Not even close. Cavill's Superman is every bit classic Superman and within the wheel house of classic Superman as Reeve,Routh, Cain or anyone else. The only difference is he's dropped into a world closer to ours that doesn't immediately instantly universally love and trust him from the moment he shows up and it isn't always a given he will always be able to dues ex machina his way out of every situation and occasionally has to make tough calls.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 12-12-2018 at 05:55 AM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  13. #103
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I will never get in any way how Cavill's Superman is anything remotely like any version of "dark" Batman. Not even close. Cavill's Superman is every bit classic Superman and within the wheel house of classic Superman as Reeve,Routh, Cain or anyone else. The only difference is he's dropped into a world closer to ours that doesn't immediately instantly universally love and trust him from the moment he shows up and it isn't always a given he will always be able to dues ex machina his way out of every situation and occasionally has to make tough calls.
    Cavill's Superman is like Routh's - both borrow some aspects of the darker/more serious tones of Batman. Not all, but some. That doesn't mean beating up criminals or anything like that. It's in more somber, almost brooding aspect of Batman. And by brooding, I mean the initial definition: "showing deep unhappiness of thought" as opposed to it's general perception, "appearing darkly menacing." The latter doesn't fit, but the former certainly does. Not that Superman can never have that, because someone will of course think I'm saying that, but I don't want to feel like most of two movies kept him that way.

    As for the world not immediately loving/trusting him, I'm fine with that. I'd just like his reaction to be more upbeat (in a "lead them into the sun" kinda way) - not happy, but a more Golden Age grit/determination type thing. After decades now of an overly-introspective Superman, I'm ready for one that's more on the proactive side. I've said for several movies now that it'd be interesting to have the color palette be muted to start, and get more vibrant as he gains the public trust. It could be very effective, imo.
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  14. #104
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Cavill's Superman is like Routh's - both borrow some aspects of the darker/more serious tones of Batman. Not all, but some. That doesn't mean beating up criminals or anything like that. It's in more somber, almost brooding aspect of Batman. And by brooding, I mean the initial definition: "showing deep unhappiness of thought" as opposed to it's general perception, "appearing darkly menacing." The latter doesn't fit, but the former certainly does. Not that Superman can never have that, because someone will of course think I'm saying that, but I don't want to feel like most of two movies kept him that way.

    As for the world not immediately loving/trusting him, I'm fine with that. I'd just like his reaction to be more upbeat (in a "lead them into the sun" kinda way) - not happy, but a more Golden Age grit/determination type thing. After decades now of an overly-introspective Superman, I'm ready for one that's more on the proactive side. I've said for several movies now that it'd be interesting to have the color palette be muted to start, and get more vibrant as he gains the public trust. It could be very effective, imo.
    I do sort of feel like at the end of MOS they were indicating that Superman was indeed going to gain the public trust in the more Golden age/ determined way that you mention. That little back and forth with Swanwick is very much that. The problem is it's glossed over in BvS. Now, I still think ultimate cut BvS is a better movie than most give it credit for, BUT it's biggest failing with Superman is not having an MOS 2 to properly set up Supes arc in BvS. MOS feels like a #0 issue in some ways. A prelude to what most of us thought we'd get in a true MOS sequel. We never got that. It was basically like going from Batman Begins directly to Dark Knight Rises. Begins was basically the origin story, Dark Knight was basically a snapshot of a Batman in his prime and TDKR was basically how Batman's arc ends. We never get a feel for who Cavill's Superman is before BvS tears him down prior to the epilogue we get in JL.

    Yeah it's there if you squint hard enough in BvS, but it's not more obvious and I can understand how people, especially if they only watched the theatrical cut of BvS which completely took entire swaths of Clark Kent's story out of the movie , that all Cavill's Superman did in that movie was brood and then get beaten up and then die with no story motivation or character arc.

    It doesn't change the fact that Cavill's Superman is still the same guy we've always known and loved in all the important ways. The film makers just do a spotty job in properly expressing it.

    The irony is that for about 30 years Superman had Batman beaten in the brooding loner department. From the mid 50s to the mid 80s it wasn't uncommon for Superman to be ruminating over the loss of his parents (both sets) Krypton and questioning his place on Earth and yes,brood. Sure it wasn't meme worthy as much as brooding became to Batman post Miller, but it was a trait of Superman's characterization that was lost in the 86 reboot and whitewashed and ignored from most other live action versions until maybe Superman Returns,and even there it was more about Supes being sad that Lois is with another guy.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 12-12-2018 at 07:54 AM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  15. #105
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I do sort of feel like at the end of MOS they were indicating that Superman was indeed going to gain the public trust in the more Golden age/ determined way that you mention. That little back and forth with Swanwick is very much that. The problem is it's glossed over in BvS.
    I'd say it's forgotten, but that's just me - much like how BvS showed a conflicted world until Superman died, but then JL says the world sucked since he died? (um....) But that does point to something that's so important that's missing: seeing him earn it. Not by dying, either. That feels like too easy a narrative to me, and skirts around the writers having to make the character truly earn it directly and not in abstract.

    Now, I still think ultimate cut BvS is a better movie than most give it credit for, BUT it's biggest failing with Superman is not having an MOS 2 to properly set up Supes arc in BvS. MOS feels like a #0 issue in some ways. A prelude to what most of us thought we'd get in a true MOS sequel. We never got that. It was basically like going from Batman Begins directly to Dark Knight Rises. Begins was basically the origin story, Dark Knight was basically a snapshot of a Batman in his prime and TDKR was basically how Batman's arc ends. We never get a feel for who Cavill's Superman is before BvS tears him down prior to the epilogue we get in JL. Yeah it's there if you squint hard enough in BvS, but it's not more obvious and I can understand how people, especially if they only watched the theatrical cut of BvS which completely took entire swaths of Clark Kent's story out of the movie , that all Cavill's Superman did in that movie was brood and then get beaten up and then die with no story motivation or character arc.
    Yep - and I knew that's how it was going to happen. Too many characters crowd a story and you can't tell complicated threads properly. And as soon as we saw teases of Doomsday, I knew he'd be dying, and I knew that "death-as-instafix" was going to happen because Snyder/etc had too many threads going at once for it to be anything else. I also knew there was no way WB would let a 4-hour cut happen with such a tentpole movie that wasn't based on Hobbits, so there was no chance of what I'd see as proper narrative growth in that framework.

    It doesn't change the fact that Cavill's Superman is still the same guy we've always known and loved in all the important ways. The film makers just do a spotty job in properly expressing it.
    I agree so far as to say most of the important ways. Especially by the end of JL. But I still feel safe in saying they gave it a good coat of Bat-paint in a few noticeable ways.
    Last edited by JAK; 12-12-2018 at 07:59 AM.
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