Man of Steel is not better than Superman Returns

[Iron_Leopard]

How can it?

When the scene between Superman and Lois on top of the daily planet and the flight scene is better than all of Man of Steel combined?

[Miles To Go]

When the scene between Superman and Lois on top of the daily planet

Everything about Lois in Superman Returns makes me hurl.

The plane rescue I'll give you...that and lifting the Kryptonite Island

Man of Steel only falls apart with Johnathan and the neck snap, other than that it's a great movie.

[Sacred Knight]

The flight scene is overrated.

And MOS is better because it at least tried to create its own vision. Controversial to some as it may be, it was its own thing, and largely succeeded on those grounds even if we didn't know at the time the plan was already to unknowingly sabotage that work going forward. Superman Returns was an abject failure the very second Singer decided it was going to be a quasi-sequel to Superman: The Movie and Superman II. It was DOA then and there.

[Iron_Leopard]

The flight scene is overrated.

And MOS is better because it at least tried to create its own vision. Controversial to some as it may be, it was its own thing, and largely succeeded on those grounds even if we didn't know at the time the plan was already to unknowingly sabotage that work going forward. Superman Returns was an abject failure the very second Singer decided it was going to be a quasi-sequel to Superman: The Movie and Superman II. It was DOA then and there.

It's own vision? They copied and pasted Batman Begins

[Sacred Knight]

It's own vision? They copied and pasted Batman Begins

I would say a copy/paste is an exaggeration. Both films were written by the same guy, there's going to be similarities. But they are their own stories, But what I really meant was that it told its own, standalone Superman story (again, with at the time knowledge of their "sequel" plans notwithstanding), for a modern audience. For me, that will always make it better than SR just purely by default. That's how bad an idea Singer's plan was.

[JAK]

I've said this before, but I see MoS and SR as being in opposite ditches in the same road. Both wanted to be seen as more serious (which is fine): SR did it with little fighting action but great looking rescues, MoS was overboard on fighting and not as great with rescues (note that I didn't say there weren't any). SR tried to copy Donner but only did so superficially (imo) - I used to think MoS tried too hard to be it's own thing, but the Nolan analogy is pretty apt in that they tried to do what Nolan did to Batman, but also missed (also imo) what made those work.

I've gone into this in much more detail, but if you could take the best of MoS and SR and put them into one film, you could possibly still have a great Superman movie.

[Robanker]

Superman Returns has Superman essentially break up a family that was actually working fine. He also eavesdrops on a private conversation between a couple. In SR, Clark didn't respect personal boundaries if he thought they shouldn't apply to him because, well, she's Lois. He was kind of creepy. That movie had a whole host of problems too.

The plane scene is a great clip on YouTube. It doesn't save the movie, though.

I don't care much for either of them, frankly. Objectively, Man of Steel might be better, but I can't get over the neck snap, Jonathan Kent and the destruction of Metropolis.

[Mia]

It's own vision? They copied and pasted Batman Begins

No they didn't. Superman/Clark in MOS was an outsider who wanted to fit in and be 'normal'. Bruce Wayne/Batman wanted justice for those who preyed on the weak (killed his parents). And your post is subjective. I frankly found SR a chore to watch. How Bryan Singer continues to get work is beyond me.

[JAK]

I love it too. I think Henry really understood what it means to be a Superman and a superhero. I'm glad Jason said that, because it makes me proud to be a Cavill fan.

Yeah... much like Brandon Routh, I never give any grief to Cavill. I thought in interviews and stuff that he truly made a good superman.... it's just the scripts they were both saddled with. If Cavill had played Superman in better scripts... and a better costume... I think he could have given Reeves a run for his money. I'm a fan of the actor.

On both of these - absolutely. I may not be a Snyder or Goyer fan when it comes to Superman, but I'm definitely a Cavill fan. I like Brandon a lot, too, and felt he could have done more with a script that didn't try to "actor proof" the role - in the end, swiping so many lines verbatim from "Superman: The Movie" made things worse, not better.

Well I loved the Cavill Superman suits, tho the JL one was a bit overdone. And it didn't help that the visual FX were not finished.. But the MOS and BvS ones are beautiful and very alien, IMO. I also think Henry made a very memorable Superman in Man of Steel. He wasn't a copy of Reeve, he was his own. He was on a journey to become the Superman from Justice League. At least that's how I see it.

Out of all of the Cavill suits, MoS has by far the best design. It's just a bit too dark. Give me MoS's suit with BvS's colors (before they went nuts with the blue filter, anyway) and I'd be happy. Or even better, have the red be more like the Thor MCU cape and we'd be golden.

I don't hate that scene. It makes sense as a parent, but at the same time it confuses a boy who just wants to do the right thing. But this is the world Snyder created, gritty and very realistic. Nothing is black or white. It's an interesting character study, but it lacks the lighthearted fun of the Donner version. It isn't a crowd pleaser, for better or for worse...

I get what they're going for, but it is a scene I think they could have handled better. Have Pa say "Maybe... maybe you need to be more careful so you're not seen." and then go into what he says about people not being ready and giving him the chance to present himself on his own terms or, if he'd prefer, not at all. It's not much of a change, but it does change a lot, imo. People understand a Pa who thinks of his son first, but a number of people draw the line somewhere before suggesting "let people die."

[thetrellan]

The flight scene is overrated.

And MOS is better because it at least tried to create its own vision. Controversial to some as it may be, it was its own thing, and largely succeeded on those grounds even if we didn't know at the time the plan was already to unknowingly sabotage that work going forward. Superman Returns was an abject failure the very second Singer decided it was going to be a quasi-sequel to Superman: The Movie and Superman II. It was DOA then and there.

I once added up everything MS used from the first two Superman movies. The magic number was 13. Thirteen of the events in Man of Steel were ripped off from Donner's films. Superman Returns and Man of Steel were the same idea. To use Donner's ground-breaking (and game changing, since they showed DC how Superman comics should look) vision as a formula to sell a new generation on a new series of Superman movies. It wasn't Snyder's idea, obviously, so it wasn't entirely his fault if it didn't click with everyone. But make no mistake. It was the same mistake made twice.

And of the two, Returns was way more original. It would probably have gone over quite well, had the obsession with formula not ruined it. The same jokes, same sound tracks, and a confusing continuity that not everyone- or even most people- understood. I myself actually read the comics that were supposed to lead up to it, and I still didn't realize where the film was picking up from (Fyi, it began ten years after Superman left Earth, which in turn happened after the end of Donner's vision of the second movie, but not the movie as it was released. See what I mean about confusing?).

Mind you, I don't see the formulaic approach itself as a problem. Not as long as it's the idea of the creators. It only becomes problematic when your investors start poking around looking for ways to cash in on 'proven methods'. There are no proven methods, just proven people. As soon as you come up with an idea that works and is used, it's obsolete. That's just the nature of creative endeavor.

[Sacred Knight]

I didn't say it was a rip off though. I said it was a sequel to I and II, and that was the idea that killed the project before it even got off the ground. I love Superman I and II but those were not films conducive of making a direct sequel to 30 years later. This again, outside of the fact the film was just a massive bore. But I never claimed it ripped anything off nor that MOS was more original(SR was hardly vastly more original, that's an exaggeration as the only original aspect of the film was Superman having a kid, but all the same yes that one aspect is more fundamentally original than an origin story; just doesn't mean it was the idea to go with in regards to reintroducing the general movie-going public to Superman).

[thetrellan]

I didn't say it was a rip off though. I said it was a sequel to I and II, and that was the idea that killed the project before it even got off the ground. I love Superman I and II but those were not films conducive of making a direct sequel to 30 years later. This again, outside of the fact the film was just a massive bore. But I never claimed it ripped anything off nor that MOS was more original(SR was hardly vastly more original, that's an exaggeration as the only original aspect of the film was Superman having a kid, but all the same yes that one aspect is more fundamentally original than an origin story; just doesn't mean it was the idea to go with in regards to reintroducing the general movie-going public to Superman).

I wasn't calling SR a ripoff either, just MS. In fact, I agree with you 100%. I meant that both movies tried to ride past success by linking to the original material in different ways: first by following the original formula and continuity, then by actually remaking said continuity. The first approach is a little worse, even though the result was a more original story. But if you removed the things linking it to those first two films and gave it a new sound track, SR would stand up well on its own. I'm sure what was done sounded like a great idea. But after seeing it, I have to say that four movies and two decades of listening to the same jokes and music ad nauseum made SR extremely tired.

[DochaDocha]

How can it?

When the scene between Superman and Lois on top of the daily planet and the flight scene is better than all of Man of Steel combined?

I really love the part when instead of having a conversation with Lois, Superman decided to use his super vision and super hearing to eavesdrop on her conversation with Richard White.

Clearly, this is a matter of taste, but you really want us to go tit for tat about which scenes in each movie are good/bad?

[jetengine]

Because dragging Luthor out as the main villain again was such an innovative and groundbreaking idea.

[stargazer01]

How can it?

When the scene between Superman and Lois on top of the daily planet and the flight scene is better than all of Man of Steel combined?

I like Superman Returns quite a bit. I think it's so underrated, but I understand why many don't like it or think it's boring. It's so derivative of first 2 Chris Reeve Superman movies. It has lots of moments and scenes I enjoy, but as a whole it doesn't offer enough new and exciting story elements and action about Superman for a modern audience. The film is too nostalgic for Donner Superman and that hurts it.

I like the kid, but even that it's tainted by the way Superman left Lois while pregnant and without saying goodbye after having a sexual relationship, IMO. It feels so wrong to not have Clark raise his own child. I still love that final scene with Superman talking to his son and promising to be there for him.

Man of Steel is not flawless, but it's a much more ambitious and exciting film that tried something different and it overall worked, IMO. We really needed a direct sequel to further develop the character into the real beacon of hope Justice League told us about.