Man of Steel is not better than Superman Returns

[thetrellan]

That's fascinating, actually. Can you go into more detail on how you feel MoS linked to the original Donner material? I'd love specifics, just to see how it matches to my own thoughts.

Someone above mentioned that MOS cribbed a lot of the Donner film. While it's not obvious on the surface, and it's definitely not as 1 to 1 as Superman Returns, there are a few things of the top of my head.

1) both incorporate Zod into the origin story. The trial and imprisonment in the phantom zone bears a vague connection to each other. Both end with Zod threatening Kal-El before his imprisonment.

2) A.I. Jor-El. This wasn't a thing prior to the Donner film. Both MOS and The Donner film use this device to not only allow a quick way for Clark to discover his heritage, but to also keep the actor that plays Jor-El in the movie beyond the first 20 minutes.

There are more, but those are the obvious ones.

1. The council's rejection of Jor-El's findings. 2. The sentencing of the Zod convicts. 3. The launch of Kal-El's ship 4. Destruction of Krypton. 5. Smallville. 6. Heartfelt talk with Poppa Kent. 7. Pa Kent dies, ultimately prompting Clark to leave Smallville. 8. Asshat trucker confronts Clark in remote bar & grill. 9. Clark gets even with asshat trucker. 10. The rescue of Lois. It's been a long time, but I think her plane was saved by him? In any case, he certainly meets Lois for the first time and falls for her. This could be two or three points, really. 11. Clark discovers his baby rocket. 12. He then finds the drive containing the AI Jor-El left him. 13. Zod and his cronies come to Earth. 14. Evil Kryptonians gang up on Superman, destroying much of Metropolis in the process.

[adkal]

1. The council's rejection of Jor-El's findings.

Happened in the Adventures series, too.

3. The launch of Kal-El's ship 4. Destruction of Krypton.

Happened in the Adventures series, too.

5. Smallville. 6. Heartfelt talk with Poppa Kent. 7. Pa Kent dies, ultimately prompting Clark to leave Smallville.

Although not called 'Smallville' and it being Eben and Sarah, we have the same thing in Adventures, too.

8. Asshat trucker confronts Clark in remote bar & grill. 9. Clark gets even with asshat trucker.

That's Superman II

10. The rescue of Lois. It's been a long time, but I think her plane was saved by him? In any case, he certainly meets Lois for the first time and falls for her. This could be two or three points, really.

The rescue when the plane hits the Black Zero?

He doesn't fall for her straight away, it's as he grows to trust her.

11. Clark discovers his baby rocket.

Jonathan tells him about it when he was young in MoS, he doesn't know about it until he's around 18 in Superman: The Movie.

12. He then finds the drive containing the AI Jor-El left him.

Has it from a young age in MoS but doesn't use it until he's 33. The Donner-verse version is a recording rather than an actual interactive AI - the MoS version is a copy of Jor's consciousness and is basically a digital copy of him and interacts the way he would.

13. Zod and his cronies come to Earth.

Superman II, and not because of a distress signal from a Kryptonian vessel.

14. Evil Kryptonians gang up on Superman, destroying much of Metropolis in the process.

Again, Sup-... wait, are you using the Donner cut?

[thetrellan]

Happened in the Adventures series, too.



Happened in the Adventures series, too.



Although not called 'Smallville' and it being Eben and Sarah, we have the same thing in Adventures, too.



That's Superman II



The rescue when the plane hits the Black Zero?

He doesn't fall for her straight away, it's as he grows to trust her.



Jonathan tells him about it when he was young in MoS, he doesn't know about it until he's around 18 in Superman: The Movie.



Has it from a young age in MoS but doesn't use it until he's 33. The Donner-verse version is a recording rather than an actual interactive AI - the MoS version is a copy of Jor's consciousness and is basically a digital copy of him and interacts the way he would.



Superman II, and not because of a distress signal from a Kryptonian vessel.



Again, Sup-... wait, are you using the Donner cut?

You should follow the links back to understand properly. I did say these were taken from the first two films. I realize many of these would appear on any Superman reboot, but added together it all equals formula. And in the original films it was definitely an AI. Any AI consists of pre-recorded responses to predicted questions and key words. Although the AI from MS has more natural responses, the idea does come from that first movie. Him falling for Lois is never instant. Also, how does what happened in Adventures make any difference? It only supports the idea that MS wan't very original.

I'm aware that MS handled these plot points in ways that vary somewhat from the Donner films. But MS wasn't advertised as a remake, and most don't seem to take it that way. If it's not a remake, it's a ripoff. A visually stunning ripoff, but a ripoff nonetheless.

[adkal]

You should follow the links back to understand properly. I did say these were taken from the first two films. I realize many of these would appear on any Superman reboot, but added together it all equals formula.

Key word.

And in the original films it was definitely an AI. Any AI consists of pre-recorded responses to predicted questions and key words. Although the AI from MS has more natural responses, the idea does come from that first movie.

I didn't say it didn't 'come from the first movie' (although there were instances in the comics, pre-movie, where Superman found a Kryptonian relic that contained a recording, so it's arguable that the Donner-take wasn't original, either), I was pointing out distinct differences: the Donner-version is pre-recorded responses to, like you said, predicted questions; the MoS-version is an uploaded consciousness and actively aware. It interacts with Lois directly (once it has updated its data) whereas the Donner(-based)-version didn't even know it wasn't talking to Kal.

Him falling for Lois is never instant.

That's kind of how you described it.

Also, how does what happened in Adventures make any difference? It only supports the idea that MS wan't very original.

It supports formula. There are key points that will appear (again, as you've said in your response) in (almost) 'any Superman reboot'.

I'm aware that MS handled these plot points in ways that vary somewhat from the Donner films. But MS wasn't advertised as a remake, and most don't seem to take it that way. If it's not a remake, it's a ripoff. A visually stunning ripoff, but a ripoff nonetheless.

No, it's an origin story and uses some of the beats that have been used from day one, decades ago. It's no more a 'rip-off' than Byrne's Man of Steel is of S&S' Action Comics or Superman origin stories.

I agree with you that there are a lot of elements in Man of Steel that are similar to or reference Superman: The Movie, I disagree with you, however, in denigrating it as a 'rip-off'.

[Killerbee911]

it's a ripoff. A visually stunning ripoff, but a ripoff nonetheless.

How do you rip off something that is source material. No Superman movie unless it vastly changes the mythos is going to be original especially movie dealing with Superman origin.Using the words rip off is horrible choice words that doesn't make sense. Sentry or All might is ripping off Superman. A superman movie using things found superman mythos is not ripping off,It is doing its job.

As for the topic itself Super Returns is a boring movie, I don't care whatever flaws MoS it has probably the best action set piece in any superman movie and is cutting two scenes away from being one of better superman movie imo

[manofsteel1979]

There's no doubt MOS did repeat some formulaic elements of the Donner film, but some of the things classified as a "rip off" are really reaching. Certain elements will just carry from version to version because thats the lore. In nearly every version of the character it begins with Jor-El being ignored and rejected by the counsol. Nearly every version has a version of Zod or an equivalent. Nearly every version has one or both of the Kents passing away before Clark becomes Superman. Nearly all of them he rescues Lois Lane...etc. If you want to say MOS ripped off the Donner film, then I can name a dozen things the Donner film ripped off of the George Reeves TV show if we apply the same standard.

I mean, you might as well say MOS ripped off the previous movies because our hero is a tall well built white guy with dark hair, blue eyes and wears a red and blue costume with a red cape and an S on his chest and calls himself Superman.

There are things as I pointed out where there's little doubt that they pulled from the old movies, but i would probably classify those things an homages.

[stargazer01]

How can it?

When the scene between Superman and Lois on top of the daily planet and the flight scene is better than all of Man of Steel combined?

I like Superman Returns quite a bit. I think it's so underrated, but I understand why many don't like it or think it's boring. It's so derivative of first 2 Chris Reeve Superman movies. It has lots of moments and scenes I enjoy, but as a whole it doesn't offer enough new and exciting story elements and action about Superman for a modern audience. The film is too nostalgic for Donner Superman and that hurts it.

I like the kid, but even that it's tainted by the way Superman left Lois while pregnant and without saying goodbye after having a sexual relationship, IMO. It feels so wrong to not have Clark raise his own child. I still love that final scene with Superman talking to his son and promising to be there for him.

Man of Steel is not flawless, but it's a much more ambitious and exciting film that tried something different and it overall worked, IMO. We really needed a direct sequel to further develop the character into the real beacon of hope Justice League told us about.

[HeroVladimir93]

I like the kid, but even that it's tainted by the way Superman left Lois while pregnant and without saying goodbye after having a sexual relationship, IMO. It feels so wrong to not have Clark raise his own child. I still love that final scene with Superman talking to his son and promising to be there for him.

DC had the right idea in introducing a son for Superman and Lois in the comic books. They wanted to avoid more "Superman is a deadbeat dad" jokes.

[Netherman14]

DC had the right idea in introducing a son for Superman and Lois in the comic books. They wanted to avoid more "Superman is a deadbeat dad" jokes.

The right idea is more so that Rebirth Superman is ensured to actually be around during Jon's childhood, unlike Singerverse Superman who wasn't around during Jason's childhood.

[HeroVladimir93]

The right idea is more so that Rebirth Superman is ensured to actually be around during Jon's childhood, unlike Singerverse Superman who wasn't around during Jason's childhood.

Yes, exactly. The idea of giving Superman and Lois a son was good, in theory, but the execution was poor and tasteless. Since Superman has to remain wholesome and likeable, he must obviously be there for son, every day of every week. It's not an exaggeration to say Jon is Jason done right.

[thetrellan]

Key word.

? If you have a point to make, don't just say you have a point to make. Spell it out.

That's kind of how you described it.

Not at all. "meets Lois for the first time and falls for her. " I didn't say instant or love at first sight.How does that not describe what happened in MS? But it did happen in a matter of hours. Days at most. Irl that's pretty timely. Even sudden.

How do you rip off something that is source material. No Superman movie unless it vastly changes the mythos is going to be original especially movie dealing with Superman origin.Using the words rip off is horrible choice words that doesn't make sense. Sentry or All might is ripping off Superman. A superman movie using things found superman mythos is not ripping off,It is doing its job.

As for the topic itself Super Returns is a boring movie, I don't care whatever flaws MoS it has probably the best action set piece in any superman movie and is cutting two scenes away from being one of better superman movie imo

Either you are calling it the best superman movie ever, or you're including feature length cartoons in this. Since we haven't got them down to the art that Japan has, here in the USA cartoons are what you do when you don't have the budget for a movie. DC does them better than most, though, because they take it more seriously. And by serious, I don't mean the opposite of comedic.

There have been 3 attempts at a Superman series of films: the original series with Christopher Reeve, plus two attempts to recreate the success of that series. The first attempt drew heavily from the films, but had an original story. The second borrowed nothing but story. The only new element of significance was the attempt at Kryptoforming the Earth. Aside from that, everything that happened in Man of Steel came from the Donner films. Are you telling me you don't see a difference between borrowing from source material and simply doing what's already been done, in roughly the same order it was done in?

There have been numerous takes on Superman since Superman the Movie. Most of them do begin with, and include, the bulk of the content seen in MS. But never all of it in one installment. MS used the first film as a map for its plot, but replaced Lex Luthor with the PZ criminals from the second film. And now another thing occurs to me: 15) The showoff between Zod's people and the U.S. military.

This is pretty much the definition of ripoff. If you don't think so, I've a river in Egypt to sell you.

[adkal]

? If you have a point to make, don't just say you have a point to make. Spell it out.

I honestly thought I had. I underlined your word (formula) and used it later when I said:

It supports formula. There are key points that will appear (again, as you've said in your response) in (almost) 'any Superman reboot'.

And more casually highlighted it when I said:

No, it's an origin story and uses some of the beats that have been used from day one, decades ago. It's no more a 'rip-off' than Byrne's Man of Steel is of S&S' Action Comics or Superman origin stories.

This is why I mentioned the Adventures television series. Your first half dozen or so items were all in the first episode of the series starring George Reeves.

Not at all. "meets Lois for the first time and falls for her. " I didn't say instant or love at first sight.

You kind of did, though. If you had, for example, said, 'eventually falls for her' or 'develops feelings for her as he gets to know her'... but you didn't, you said that he meets her and falls for her.

Semantics on my part, perhaps.

How does that not describe what happened in MS? But it did happen in a matter of hours. Days at most. Irl that's pretty timely. Even sudden.

Yeah, it was likely a couple of weeks because Perry (and this was a major point of dispute when the movie came out) specifically said that Lois was being put on two weeks' leave. In that time, her silence and willingness to protect Clark and the secret allows him to trust her and things develop from there.

...everything that happened in Man of Steel came from the Donner films. Are you telling me you don't see a difference between borrowing from source material and simply doing what's already been done, in roughly the same order it was done in?

So Donner ripped off Thomas Carr and Richard Fielding/Robert Maxwell (the director and writer of the first episode of Adventures)?

Formula and homages.

For example: the sequence (in MoS) where the Jor-conscience tells Kal about the escape from Krypton, the rocket looks like the one from STM is a homage not a rip-off.

Clark asking why he's so different is part of the formula, and was used in episode 1 of Adventures (where he's 12), STM where he's pushing 18, and, again, when he's around 12 in MoS (although it can be argued it was used again in the pre-tornado scene). Formula, not rip-off.

[Lightning Rider]

Was Jor-El as AI a Donner thing? Never knew. In fact I'm curious about how many different descriptions there are of his experience in the pod.

[thetrellan]

I honestly thought I had. I underlined your word (formula) and used it later when I said:

It supports formula. There are key points that will appear (again, as you've said in your response) in (almost) 'any Superman reboot'.

And more casually highlighted it when I said:

No, it's an origin story and uses some of the beats that have been used from day one, decades ago. It's no more a 'rip-off' than Byrne's Man of Steel is of S&S' Action Comics or Superman origin stories.

This is why I mentioned the Adventures television series. Your first half dozen or so items were all in the first episode of the series starring George Reeves.




You kind of did, though. If you had, for example, said, 'eventually falls for her' or 'develops feelings for her as he gets to know her'... but you didn't, you said that he meets her and falls for her.

Semantics on my part, perhaps.

There are no semantics to consider. Keep your words out of my mouth. At worst I failed to make these two items instead of one. Fine. 16)Falls for Lois. Happy?

Yeah, it was likely a couple of weeks because Perry (and this was a major point of dispute when the movie came out) specifically said that Lois was being put on two weeks' leave. In that time, her silence and willingness to protect Clark and the secret allows him to trust her and things develop from there.

So Donner ripped off Thomas Carr and Richard Fielding/Robert Maxwell (the director and writer of the first episode of Adventures)?

Formula and homages.

For example: the sequence (in MoS) where the Jor-conscience tells Kal about the escape from Krypton, the rocket looks like the one from STM is a homage not a rip-off.

Clark asking why he's so different is part of the formula, and was used in episode 1 of Adventures (where he's 12), STM where he's pushing 18, and, again, when he's around 12 in MoS (although it can be argued it was used again in the pre-tornado scene). Formula, not rip-off.

So you have trouble differentiating between canon and formula, and between homage and a remake. Got it. Deniiiial...

[thetrellan]

Was Jor-El as AI a Donner thing? Never knew. In fact I'm curious about how many different descriptions there are of his experience in the pod.

Superman the Movie is the first, and most extensive, portrayal of his experiences inside the rocket. The AI was a hologram, even then a staple of science fiction. Redesigning the crystal that housed both it and the Fortress of Solitude as a thumb drive was a nice touch in Man of Steel. In Superman the Movie it was a hologram of Marlon Brando as Jor-El, but in the second Susannah York as Lara because Brando is just too expensive, apparently. The pod may have been revisited in cartoon form. But I don't think so in live action until the Supergirl series.