Man of Steel is not better than Superman Returns

[Yoda]

The last season if Smallville is actually really good. The 200th? Episode where he goes to the future and meets himself is one of my favorite Superman stories. It's pretty great.

And wasn't it Welling who refused to wear the suit at all. I think they probably would have thrown him in it by season 8 or 9 otherwise.

And the Smallville season 11 comics are actually really good. I like the versions of Batman and Wonder Woman they introduce.

[Shockingjustice]

The last season if Smallville is actually really good. The 200th? Episode where he goes to the future and meets himself is one of my favorite Superman stories. It's pretty great.

And wasn't it Welling who refused to wear the suit at all. I think they probably would have thrown him in it by season 8 or 9 otherwise.

And the Smallville season 11 comics are actually really good. I like the versions of Batman and Wonder Woman they introduce.

The issue with wonder woman was one of the first comics I read and is what got into her character.

I just started my binge watch of smallville on hulu.

[dancj]

Let me guess. Your favorite character was Lex? :P

Well yeah. Wasn't everyone's?

I also liked Clark, Lionel and Chloe.

In terms of performance though, Lex and Lionel acted everyone else under the table.

[Killerbee911]

Smallville can't ever be forgotten. For better or worse, Tom welling played that role for 10 years... and a solid 22-24 episodes each. which is more than Dean Caine, George Reeve, Christopher Reeves and Henry Cavill COMBINED Christopher Reeves will always be my iconic Superman.... but for a LOT of people Welling will be, and it's really hard to dispute that claim...

10 years Welling played "kinda superman".Your addition is your wrong all of those men suited up played "actual Superman" way more than Welling. Nothing against Smallville I actually like show but that is like saying David Mazouz who plays Bruce Wayne and will probably show up Batman at some point in last season is a better batman than George Clooney or Val Kilmer because Mazouz has 5 years in the role. Now Welling is the best "Blur" out all of those actors.

[manofsteel1979]

To me,Welling played Superman in all but costume. After all,he played Kal-El/Clark and Kal-El/Clark is Superman, so he played Superman,just a version of him before he wore the suit. The suit is NOT Superman. The guy in it is. The show certainly had it's flaws and did go too long on the " No flights, No tights" formula, and the unfortunate recent developments regarding Allison Mack has tainted the show a bit,but I think it's an overall blessing to the Superman franchise. And Welling DID portray Superman longer than anyone else in sheer hours of material. Doesn't mean he's necessarily better than the others, but he played the role for 10 years and 200+ hours of television. That has to count for something.

For people growing up in that time, he is their Superman, in the same way Chris Reeve was mine, or Henry Cavill is someone else's. It honestly was great to follow a weekly Superman series for a decade and honestly for much of that time it was beating the pants off of what DC Comics was putting out in the comics, IMO.Yeah, he wasn't wearing the suit and calling himself Superman, but by the end it had all the Superman elements and honestly it felt more legit than most of the comics DC was putting out around 2009-2011.

And I've said it before and I will say it again, the Smallville Season 11 comics and the DCU it was building was the New 52 done right, a clean, largely continuity friendly to new readers illeration that took a few liberties here and there but generally stayed true to the spirit of it's prior incarnations AND placed Superman directly in it's center. .i think that's why the powers that be ultimately cancelled it instead of expanding on it like they should have, but that's a different topic for a different time.

[Killerbee911]

To me,Welling played Superman in all but costume. After all,he played Kal-El/Clark and Kal-El/Clark is Superman, so he played Superman,just a version of him before he wore the suit. The suit is NOT Superman. The guy in it is. The show certainly had it's flaws and did go too long on the " No flights, No tights" formula, and the unfortunate recent developments regarding Allison Mack has tainted the show a bit,but I think it's an overall blessing to the Superman franchise. And Welling DID portray Superman longer than anyone else in sheer hours of material. Doesn't mean he's necessarily better than the others, but he played the role for 10 years and 200+ hours of television. That has to count for something.

No he played Clark Kent/Ka el and Proto Superman/ Blur more than any actor. Superman is not the suit but Superman very much is the iconography and a mission statement while he is in that suit. As much time Welling played the character he didn't achieve things that you want to see from "Superman". Superman saving the day in public and world understanding that he is doing good very much core to character. Look up in the air and seeing Superman or seeing him stop big disaster from the view of public very much a part of the package. Once again I like the show but by default yeah you have to call him Superman but they are too many "yeah buts". He was Superman "yeah but "we only saw him costume once",He was Superman "yeah but" he didn't really fly around, He was "yeah but" don't have any memories of him doing anything iconic in the suit.

The suit does not make him Superman but how the world view him does make him and the is a strong part of the mythos. And you never really got that in the show and for me by strict definition it hard for me to call him a Iconic Superman when I didn't get the wonder and awe of the full package. The show want to be coy about so as fan I can be coy about it too. People are free to call him Superman I get it but the show wanted an asterisk superman and years later don't be shock when people treat him like the asterisk superman they wanted.

[Francisco]

The last season if Smallville is actually really good. The 200th? Episode where he goes to the future and meets himself is one of my favorite Superman stories. It's pretty great.

And wasn't it Welling who refused to wear the suit at all. I think they probably would have thrown him in it by season 8 or 9 otherwise.

And the Smallville season 11 comics are actually really good. I like the versions of Batman and Wonder Woman they introduce.

He can try to rewrite history as much as he wanst but he didn't want to wear the suit and he made it clear in every interview he gave when the series started. They even had to beg him to take the part.
I don't hate the guy but I do wish they would have picked a better actor.
I remember that back in the day many fans feared Smallville was going to Dawson's "Creekize" Superman and sadly it did happen. Just like Dawson, Clark wasn't the most compelling character in his own show. Not by a long shot

[Kuwagaton]

I'm not sure why that would be the case here, though. He doesn't have all of his powers yet, much less knowing what to do with them. All he'd have is limited knowledge and instinct. There's no fault for losing that one.

There's a line in the sand where the creators of his narrative haven't used failure to define his origin. Sure an adaptation can take liberties, but respectfully, virtually none of them do there. It's similarly hard to find a sustainable effort at Batman where they decided that Bruce could have saved his parents and just failed.

For me, attempting to save isn't character regression, it's character consistency.

I think a Clark who obeys Jonathan even when he doesn't agree will come away with more maturity and closure than a Clark who does the same thing he did before puberty, exponentially so if there's any possible outcome of failure. In what we actually got, sure, the emergence of Superman did a lot of good and I can see that it outweighs not making himself seen, but the bad that Jon and Perry saw along with it did come about, and Clark did die very soon after with no reasonable expectation to get better.

And what part of what I said suggested to you that I thought Jonathan is being selfish in that scene?

You didn't, but that comment has been made frequently by others and since I was along those lines I figured I'd address it. I meant the same for the idea of comparing the 78 death.

Also, on a side/joking note (since it just occurred to me), I'd like my scene re-write submitted as counter-evidence when someone suggests that people who didn't like these movies can't accept anything less than a perfect character. lol

Oh yeah. I think even the most ardent of Marvel CU true believers out there would need the part where Clark has to confront his own perfection.

I don't know... I think ooc controversial scenes are why we are where we are in the DCEU. I also feel that changing the "how" - even leaving most of the overall "what" intact - could have saved things, *maybe*. In that way, David Goyer is a giant tornado and I'm running right toward it. LOL! (don't mind me, couldn't help myself)

[JAK]

There's a line in the sand where the creators of his narrative haven't used failure to define his origin. Sure an adaptation can take liberties, but respectfully, virtually none of them do there. It's similarly hard to find a sustainable effort at Batman where they decided that Bruce could have saved his parents and just failed.

I think that depends on how you look at it. "Smallville" did in a sense, when Clark saved Lana and doing so killed Pa (iirc). That's not that dissimilar, and arguably worse. Not to mention that all of MoS is something of an origin story, and the end to the Zod fight has been categorized as both a victory *and* a failure. So maybe not this directly, but I'd say it's in there enough that it's not the outlier it might seem.

I think a Clark who obeys Jonathan even when he doesn't agree will come away with more maturity and closure than a Clark who does the same thing he did before puberty, exponentially so if there's any possible outcome of failure. In what we actually got, sure, the emergence of Superman did a lot of good and I can see that it outweighs not making himself seen, but the bad that Jon and Perry saw along with it did come about, and Clark did die very soon after with no reasonable expectation to get better.

I get what you're driving at, and I'd normally agree if "what he did before puberty" wasn't "trying to save people." If you want to be technical about it, everything he's done since putting on the costume could then be classified as a regression. I wouldn't do so personally, I'm just saying that both arguments bear the same weight to me in this particular instance. Also, the Batman fight had a huge possible outcome of failure and almost ended up that way, and then (as you also said) he was killed trying to stop Zodsday.

You didn't, but that comment has been made frequently by others and since I was along those lines I figured I'd address it. I meant the same for the idea of comparing the 78 death.

OH!! My bad. Carry on.

Oh yeah. I think even the most ardent of Marvel CU true believers out there would need the part where Clark has to confront his own perfection.

I'm sure that'll go perfectly. Seriously, though: yes, I agree.

(stops)

.....

(thinks for a moment)

.....

(light bulb!)

"YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD!!!!" (ROTFLMAO)
#couldn'thelpmyself-asusual

[phantom1592]

And the Smallville season 11 comics are actually really good. I like the versions of Batman and Wonder Woman they introduce.

Yeah, I'll agree with this. Ollies was having a sale on TPBs and I picked up the GL, Batman and Flash volumes... and I was amazed how much I enjoyed that book. It had that early 'ultimate marvel' feel where it was free from the 70 years of continuity and able to just tell some solid superman stories. Definitiey what New 52 SHOULD have been.

[Yoda]

Yeah, I'll agree with this. Ollies was having a sale on TPBs and I picked up the GL, Batman and Flash volumes... and I was amazed how much I enjoyed that book. It had that early 'ultimate marvel' feel where it was free from the 70 years of continuity and able to just tell some solid superman stories. Definitiey what New 52 SHOULD have been.

You should check out the Wonder Woman volume. It's great and has early Jorge Jimenez art as well. Great stuff.

[phantom1592]

He can try to rewrite history as much as he wanst but he didn't want to wear the suit and he made it clear in every interview he gave when the series started. They even had to beg him to take the part.
I don't hate the guy but I do wish they would have picked a better actor.
I remember that back in the day many fans feared Smallville was going to Dawson's "Creekize" Superman and sadly it did happen. Just like Dawson, Clark wasn't the most compelling character in his own show. Not by a long shot

yeah... I don't really believe that.

I think Welling did a fine job... and he really grew into the role, but for someone without any kind of resume either before or after to need to be 'begged' to take the role? I don't believe it. Had it been a big name that they were building the show around maybe, but at least in the beginning he wasn't nearly important enough to have that kind of pull.

What I DO remember is that back in the beginning... before it was even shown, the showrunners were touting the 'no tights, no flights' mantra. I wholeheartedly believe that Welling started off toeing the company line about how much he loves that concept and agrees wholeheartedly... but if they ever decided to change directions and give him the cape, I highly doubt he would have walked away from that steady job. Nor do I think he'd shoot down a movie or guest appearance or something out of hand.

Maybe if the costume looks like crap... but just out of hand? Those decisions went higher up than him.

You should check out the Wonder Woman volume. It's great and has early Jorge Jimenez art as well. Great stuff.

I'm keeping an eye out.

it's interesting how much I hated the Buffy season 8 continuation... and the Firefly comics, but Smallville unfettered by budget? That really worked.

[JAK]

yeah... I don't really believe that.

I think Welling did a fine job... and he really grew into the role, but for someone without any kind of resume either before or after to need to be 'begged' to take the role? I don't believe it. Had it been a big name that they were building the show around maybe, but at least in the beginning he wasn't nearly important enough to have that kind of pull.

What I DO remember is that back in the beginning... before it was even shown, the showrunners were touting the 'no tights, no flights' mantra. I wholeheartedly believe that Welling started off toeing the company line about how much he loves that concept and agrees wholeheartedly... but if they ever decided to change directions and give him the cape, I highly doubt he would have walked away from that steady job. Nor do I think he'd shoot down a movie or guest appearance or something out of hand.

He wasn't begged to take the job, I don't think, and worked long and hard on the show - to the point that Michael Rosenbaum and the rest of the cast petitioned CW (then WB network) to get him a driver so he didn't drive home too exhausted and get into an accident. For whatever reason, though... he absolutely *is* the reason he never put on a suit. I think he had agents or whoever telling him that it'd be a bad idea for his career, typecasting, etc, and he refused. Now he talks about how "it wasn't earned" and all that.. and that sounds nice enough, but it also sounds like the PR/face-saving answer that it is. He wanted to play Clark, and absolutely didn't want to play Superman.

In contrast, Michael Rosenbaum would love another go at Lex, and he doesn't care where it comes from or how it happens. I saw a panel at Wizard World this year in Chicago with Tom and Michael where he said exactly that several times, and Michael was absolutely amazing - he *made* that panel. Very animated, hilarious, and a whole lot of fun.

[stargazer01]

He wasn't begged to take the job, I don't think, and worked long and hard on the show - to the point that Michael Rosenbaum and the rest of the cast petitioned CW (then WB network) to get him a driver so he didn't drive home too exhausted and get into an accident. For whatever reason, though... he absolutely *is* the reason he never put on a suit. I think he had agents or whoever telling him that it'd be a bad idea for his career, typecasting, etc, and he refused. Now he talks about how "it wasn't earned" and all that.. and that sounds nice enough, but it also sounds like the PR/face-saving answer that it is. He wanted to play Clark, and absolutely didn't want to play Superman.

In contrast, Michael Rosenbaum would love another go at Lex, and he doesn't care where it comes from or how it happens. I saw a panel at Wizard World this year in Chicago with Tom and Michael where he said exactly that several times, and Michael was absolutely amazing - he *made* that panel. Very animated, hilarious, and a whole lot of fun.

I completely agree. Welling didn't want to wear the suit because he's not a big Superman fan, and because he didnt want to get typecast and hurt his acting career for bigger roles. The irony is that he never got a bigger role in a film. He doesn't have a film career really. And he never got to play full on Superman either. Funny how things play out.

[Powerboy]

Just took my best friend's little girl to see "Mary Poppins Returns" Holey Moley. Now THIS is how you do a sequel to an iconic movie. You stay completely true to it, not kind of true but deviate drastically in other ways. This is bordering on impossible, a sequel almost 55 years later that will be accepted and is being accepted as a true sequel. Ironic too since the main character doesn't accept that anything is impossible

I say this largely as a comparison to "Superman Returns". People say it failed by trying to recreate the feel of the Reeve movies which were allegedly outdated. Um, no. It failed by failing to recreate the magic of the Reeve movies, by deviating too much.