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  1. #46
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Yeah... the only scenarios I can possibly/maybe/kinda-sorta if I squint see involve Lois and Richard meeting while drunk (she feels betrayed/hurt/etc by Superman and overdoes it, maybe he's in the same place over someone else and shared experience turns them to each other) and the relationship "starting over" in a sense when they talk the next morning and genuinely like each other. Then she finds out she's pregnant and thinks it could be from the first night (or something). I'm even reluctant over this scenario because it feels out of place completely with how I see Lois, I'm just trying to think of a scenario where her guard would be down quickly with Richard and I'm failing to come up with anything that clicks for me. Someone else could probably come up with something better, at least I'd hope so. lol





    I see and agree with both of these takes. I generally have an "all-inclusive" idea of Superman and can roll with changes in emphasis.. but SR and MoS broke harder character walls (for me) than I was cool with. And as much as I love the Post-Crisis Superman and will absolutely defend him (with some exceptions, Superman #22 for example), I can see how others look at some of those things and don't like them at all.
    According to the Comic Lois met Richard a full month after Superman left. Remember he's Perry's Nephew. He's also a damn good looking guy, can fly a plane and is pretty heroic in his own right. How could she not fall for him? She actually thought the Baby was born Pre-mature and that's why he's so sickly. Remember she has no recollection of being in a relationship with Superman and thought of Clark only as her Friend.

  2. #47
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astro@work View Post
    These two movies are like apples and oranges to me.

    SR's represented the "last of the Silver Age" movies to me. It reflected a simpler era, and didn't branch out far enough from the Donner movies. Too afraid to give Supes a real badass villain, and so relied on the done-to-death Lex. (Why oh why didn't they do Brainiac here?)
    Richard was there to put some tension in the Clark/Lois relationship, but we liked him too much. Ultimately it suffered from the flaw of being boring.

    MOS conversely represented the modern era of trying to make everything edgy and angsty. Loved Cavill, hated their take on Jonathan.
    Never had a problem with the Zod resolution because I'd already seen Byrne's Superman kill Zod, and it was painted as a resolution he was forced to make after exhausting all options. I did love the edginess of Zod's invasion. The "destruction porn" was the clear difference between the Donner era and the Snyder era.
    I never believed in Superman II how little damage was done to the city (broken windows mostly). The Snyder version made Zod's threat much clearer and realistic.
    Ultimately it suffered the flaw of being too edgy and taking the shine off of a hopeful optimistic Superman.

    Both flawed, but I'd watch either of them again.
    I don't think it was trying to be Angsty or Edgy (I remember when people loved those two words) it was trying to be real and speaking from the Heart. Lets face it the world is pretty shitty nowadays. Every time we start to painstakingly dig ourselves out of the shit heap we find ourselves buried in some asshole comes along to steal our shovel and breaks it over his knee and walks off laughing or offers to sell us a new one. Into this world comes a Superman. WTF did you think was going to happen? What's you think the Shovel breakers/sellers were going to let him start digging us out without a fight? Fuck No. Would he even know how when he was raised by Diggers. All he could Do was try. And most of you damned him for that cause you felt he didn't try hard enough. Hell nothing he did was enough.

  3. #48
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    According to the Comic Lois met Richard a full month after Superman left. Remember he's Perry's Nephew. He's also a damn good looking guy, can fly a plane and is pretty heroic in his own right. How could she not fall for him? She actually thought the Baby was born Pre-mature and that's why he's so sickly. Remember she has no recollection of being in a relationship with Superman and thought of Clark only as her Friend.
    Oh, that's right. And as for her falling for Richard - it's not that I can't see her doing that (i can), it's them getting to that point in the relationship that quickly.. especially that quickly after Superman left Earth. In the scenario I thought up, she stayed with Richard after that first night and she fell for him because of what she saw in him. It might also be because that scenario sounds like something the SR writers and Singer would think up (the whole "it's more real because it's complicated" kinda thing).

    I do get that she doesn't remember that Clark is Superman, but I thought SR seemed to show that she does remember something of them having a relationship (just not to the exact extent that they did).
    Last edited by JAK; 09-25-2018 at 11:54 PM.
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  4. #49
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    There was an interview with Bryan Singer back in 2006, in which Singer was quoted as saying that he ignored the amnesia kiss and Lois remembered her relationship with Supes. It just made me facepalm even harder.

  5. #50
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    There was an interview with Bryan Singer back in 2006, in which Singer was quoted as saying that he ignored the amnesia kiss and Lois remembered her relationship with Supes. It just made me facepalm even harder.
    Wow.... agreed, totally.
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  6. #51
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    There was an interview with Bryan Singer back in 2006, in which Singer was quoted as saying that he ignored the amnesia kiss and Lois remembered her relationship with Supes. It just made me facepalm even harder.
    So she knows Clark is Superman and still pretends she doesn't know even when they have private conversations?

    Facepalm indeed.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  7. #52
    Amazing Member Lucky's Avatar
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    I actually prefer Superman Returns more. I thought Brandon Routh was fantastic, and I wish we could have seen more Superman films with him in it.

  8. #53
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    So she knows Clark is Superman and still pretends she doesn't know even when they have private conversations?

    Facepalm indeed.
    Nah, she had a (physical) relationship with Superman but didn't know he was Clark.

    There was also suggestion (outside the movie, mostly, although I think a couple of Perry's line intimated) that their relationship had gone on for a while.



    The timeline is quite screwy in the movie. For example:

    There is no reason for the amnesia kiss because Lois didn't know The Secret and so wasn't torn by it (if Niagara Falls did happen then it happened differently, overall).

    The Zod Crew never escaped from the Phantom Zone so the Promise to the President (and the World) never happened.

    Since Superman didn't give up his powers for Lois' sake, the Jor-Head sacrifice never happened.

  9. #54
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    IMO, both are equally mediocre movies, and both ultimately failed to get the Superman film series back on track.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Francisco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    IMO, both are equally mediocre movies, and both ultimately failed to get the Superman film series back on track.
    Actually MOS did succeed as the first instalement of a new series of Superman films (despite of its divisiveness) but they squandered it all with BvS.
    "By force of will he turns his gaze upon the seething horror bellow us on the hillside.
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  11. #56
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    IMO, both are equally mediocre movies, and both ultimately failed to get the Superman film series back on track.
    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    Actually MOS did succeed as the first installment of a new series of Superman films (despite of its divisiveness) but they squandered it all with BvS.
    I see that as half-right. MoS was just "in the door" enough that other films would decide the ultimate fate of the franchise. Had MoS been better, BvS wouldn't have given the DCEU as much of a knock as it did. As it was, BvS had the opportunity to give MoS more leeway "in retrospect." Instead, it did the opposite (as you said).
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  12. #57
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    Actually MOS did succeed as the first instalement of a new series of Superman films (despite of its divisiveness) but they squandered it all with BvS.
    I agree with this. As much as i like the Ultimate Cut of BvS, the theatrical cut definitely didn't do DCEU Supes any favors.Unfortunately thats the cut most people saw and it made a bad impression.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  13. #58
    Solid Member Odd Rödney's Avatar
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    Both films have some issues. But if I have to pick one over the other I'd have to say that Man Of Steel is better. I didn't like that Singer placed his film in the continuity of the original films. It was a mistake. I also didn't like that Superman was a creeper in that film; messing up a good relationship, being a deadbeat dad. Plus, Luthor? Again?

    That being said i think Man Of Steel has some issues too. Pa Kent should've died from a heart attack because it teaches Clark that there are some things he can't stop, some lives he can't save. The death he received in the film doesn't provide that kind of gravity. Also, Superman should've done more to get the fight out of Metropolis.

    But Man Of Steel is a much more exciting film. Tonally it is a much darker film than Superman Returns but it feels much more like it happens in a world like ours. I hold that Man Of Steel is the second best film in the DCEU. Man Of Steel certainly isn't the reason that franchise is struggling. BvS and Suicide Squad are.
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  14. #59
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I think Man of Steel is so much better. I re-watched all the Reeve Superman movies, and then saw Returns, and it wasn't as good. Cyclops was in it, Lois Lane looked like a teenager. Roth was the Man and Spacey totally delivered, but there just wasn't enough something new. It was too reverential. Man of Steel is beautifully shot, Cavill deserves the Cape, and all the big set pieces pay off. Krypton is a revelation and I think I prefer Crowe's Jor-El way more than Brando's.

  15. #60
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    Man of Steel is not any better than falling down and scraping your elbow on the side walk imo.

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