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  1. #61
    Incredible Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    I really liked Man of Steel. I liked the direction they were going with it. Superman Returns really disapointed me. I did like that it was reverential to the Donner movies but It just seemed really out of character. I never liked Donner's take on Luthor so it really annoyed me when they had the perfect actor for Luthor but they continued to use him in the same way. I just couldnt get into it.

  2. #62
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    My buddy and I did a podcast on these two films a while back. While we didn't think Superman Retruns was necessarily bad, we did find that it was basically just a less inspired and less well-thought out remake of Superman: The Movie... And that Superman had evolved past some of the Silver Age paradigm in that film, so SR was kind of shooting itself in the foot twice.

    Man of Steel isn't perfect (I personally don't really like their version of Pa Kent or his death) but it did bring what I believed was a better Superman/Clark to the table, alongside a better villain in Shannon's Zod and a better idea for Lois, and had a generally smarter and more imaginative plot. Some of this is just naked bias; I'm not that much of a fan of Silver Age Superman cliches. But a lot of it I think was just a that the film was taking what Superman had become since the 70's... And to some extent showing why a lot of the new elements were better.

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  3. #63
    Fantastic Member dishpan's Avatar
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    For me, I think the main reason that Donner's Superman 1 and Snyder's Man Of Steel are so infinitely rewatchable is just that they are so meticulously made.

    Their budgets are so huge and everyone involved is so incredibly talented that it can't not show up on screen. Every frame of them both is moving and gorgeous (to me).

    I never thought replacing John Williams' score with Hans Zimmer would work and yet I listen to that soundtrack still to this day because of how impactful it is.

    I guess I was just ready for something new even though I loved Routh in SR. The quality of actors in MoS across the board is insane.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    My buddy and I did a podcast on these two films a while back. While we didn't think Superman Retruns was necessarily bad, we did find that it was basically just a less inspired and less well-thought out remake of Superman: The Movie... And that Superman had evolved past some of the Silver Age paradigm in that film, so SR was kind of shooting itself in the foot twice.

    Man of Steel isn't perfect (I personally don't really like their version of Pa Kent or his death) but it did bring what I believed was a better Superman/Clark to the table, alongside a better villain in Shannon's Zod and a better idea for Lois, and had a generally smarter and more imaginative plot. Some of this is just naked bias; I'm not that much of a fan of Silver Age Superman cliches. But a lot of it I think was just a that the film was taking what Superman had become since the 70's... And to some extent showing why a lot of the new elements were better.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=418688625
    Good summary and I agree.

  5. #65
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The flight scene is overrated.

    And MOS is better because it at least tried to create its own vision. Controversial to some as it may be, it was its own thing, and largely succeeded on those grounds even if we didn't know at the time the plan was already to unknowingly sabotage that work going forward. Superman Returns was an abject failure the very second Singer decided it was going to be a quasi-sequel to Superman: The Movie and Superman II. It was DOA then and there.
    I once added up everything MS used from the first two Superman movies. The magic number was 13. Thirteen of the events in Man of Steel were ripped off from Donner's films. Superman Returns and Man of Steel were the same idea. To use Donner's ground-breaking (and game changing, since they showed DC how Superman comics should look) vision as a formula to sell a new generation on a new series of Superman movies. It wasn't Snyder's idea, obviously, so it wasn't entirely his fault if it didn't click with everyone. But make no mistake. It was the same mistake made twice.

    And of the two, Returns was way more original. It would probably have gone over quite well, had the obsession with formula not ruined it. The same jokes, same sound tracks, and a confusing continuity that not everyone- or even most people- understood. I myself actually read the comics that were supposed to lead up to it, and I still didn't realize where the film was picking up from (Fyi, it began ten years after Superman left Earth, which in turn happened after the end of Donner's vision of the second movie, but not the movie as it was released. See what I mean about confusing?).

    Mind you, I don't see the formulaic approach itself as a problem. Not as long as it's the idea of the creators. It only becomes problematic when your investors start poking around looking for ways to cash in on 'proven methods'. There are no proven methods, just proven people. As soon as you come up with an idea that works and is used, it's obsolete. That's just the nature of creative endeavor.
    Last edited by thetrellan; 10-08-2018 at 11:59 AM.

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I didn't say it was a rip off though. I said it was a sequel to I and II, and that was the idea that killed the project before it even got off the ground. I love Superman I and II but those were not films conducive of making a direct sequel to 30 years later. This again, outside of the fact the film was just a massive bore. But I never claimed it ripped anything off nor that MOS was more original(SR was hardly vastly more original, that's an exaggeration as the only original aspect of the film was Superman having a kid, but all the same yes that one aspect is more fundamentally original than an origin story; just doesn't mean it was the idea to go with in regards to reintroducing the general movie-going public to Superman).
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-08-2018 at 12:08 PM.
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  7. #67
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I didn't say it was a rip off though. I said it was a sequel to I and II, and that was the idea that killed the project before it even got off the ground. I love Superman I and II but those were not films conducive of making a direct sequel to 30 years later. This again, outside of the fact the film was just a massive bore. But I never claimed it ripped anything off nor that MOS was more original(SR was hardly vastly more original, that's an exaggeration as the only original aspect of the film was Superman having a kid, but all the same yes that one aspect is more fundamentally original than an origin story; just doesn't mean it was the idea to go with in regards to reintroducing the general movie-going public to Superman).
    I wasn't calling SR a ripoff either, just MS. In fact, I agree with you 100%. I meant that both movies tried to ride past success by linking to the original material in different ways: first by following the original formula and continuity, then by actually remaking said continuity. The first approach is a little worse, even though the result was a more original story. But if you removed the things linking it to those first two films and gave it a new sound track, SR would stand up well on its own. I'm sure what was done sounded like a great idea. But after seeing it, I have to say that four movies and two decades of listening to the same jokes and music ad nauseum made SR extremely tired.

  8. #68
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    I wasn't calling SR a ripoff either, just MS. In fact, I agree with you 100%. I meant that both movies tried to ride past success by linking to the original material in different ways: first by following the original formula and continuity, then by actually remaking said continuity. The first approach is a little worse, even though the result was a more original story. But if you removed the things linking it to those first two films and gave it a new sound track, SR would stand up well on its own. I'm sure what was done sounded like a great idea. But after seeing it, I have to say that four movies and two decades of listening to the same jokes and music ad nauseum made SR extremely tired.
    That's fascinating, actually. Can you go into more detail on how you feel MoS linked to the original Donner material? I'd love specifics, just to see how it matches to my own thoughts.
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  9. #69
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    Man of Steel is miles better than Superman Returns. The plane sequence was mediocre. Most of it was just Lois being tossed around the plane and the way he stops the plane at the end was beyond stupid and impossible. The scene on the roof was god awful. Actually any scene where Brandon Routh had to actually act was awful. The guy sucks and there's a reason his career died and he plays a secondary role on a crappy CW superhero show.

    Man of Steel at least tried to be interesting. People may not have like MOS Jonathan Kent but at least he was unique among the various portrayals.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Even Bryan Singer has admitted that he should have just rebooted the series and not attempted to make a loose continuation of the Donner filmverse. It should also be noted that while Singer was a huge fan of the original Superman movie, he has stated he is not a Superman fan. This permeates throughout Superman Returns.

    For me, I just can't get behind the idea that Superman Returns was better than Man of Steel. They're both flawed films but Man of Steel was just such a better attempt in my opinion.

  11. #71
    Master Hero Vladimir
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    It should also be noted that while Singer was a huge fan of the original Superman movie, he has stated he is not a Superman fan.
    How does that happen?

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroVladimir93 View Post
    How does that happen?
    I really liked the movie Guardians of the Galaxy. I am not a fan of the Guardians of the Galaxy, and as such, I was not hyped to see the movie was being made, and I never bought one of their comics.

  13. #73
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Someone above mentioned that MOS cribbed a lot of the Donner film. While it's not obvious on the surface, and it's definitely not as 1 to 1 as Superman Returns, there are a few things of the top of my head.

    1) both incorporate Zod into the origin story. The trial and imprisonment in the phantom zone bears a vague connection to each other. Both end with Zod threatening Kal-El before his imprisonment.

    2) A.I. Jor-El. This wasn't a thing prior to the Donner film. Both MOS and The Donner film use this device to not only allow a quick way for Clark to discover his heritage, but to also keep the actor that plays Jor-El in the movie beyond the first 20 minutes.

    There are more, but those are the obvious ones.
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  14. #74
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    Someone above mentioned that MOS cribbed a lot of the Donner film. While it's not obvious on the surface, and it's definitely not as 1 to 1 as Superman Returns, there are a few things of the top of my head.

    1) both incorporate Zod into the origin story. The trial and imprisonment in the phantom zone bears a vague connection to each other. Both end with Zod threatening Kal-El before his imprisonment.

    2) A.I. Jor-El. This wasn't a thing prior to the Donner film. Both MOS and The Donner film use this device to not only allow a quick way for Clark to discover his heritage, but to also keep the actor that plays Jor-El in the movie beyond the first 20 minutes.

    There are more, but those are the obvious ones.
    They flipped the spin and toss from Superman II

    (wrong movie, I know, but still )

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Even Bryan Singer has admitted that he should have just rebooted the series and not attempted to make a loose continuation of the Donner filmverse. It should also be noted that while Singer was a huge fan of the original Superman movie, he has stated he is not a Superman fan. This permeates throughout Superman Returns.

    For me, I just can't get behind the idea that Superman Returns was better than Man of Steel. They're both flawed films but Man of Steel was just such a better attempt in my opinion.
    I still laugh when I think of how the internet exploded in hype when Singer was announced as taking over the project. The excitement was just at the time based on the successes of the first two X-Men films, but was ignoring the major red flags of the things he was saying.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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