Man of Steel is not better than Superman Returns

[stargazer01]

I'd say it's forgotten, but that's just me - much like how BvS showed a conflicted world until Superman died, but then JL says the world sucked since he died? (um....) But that does point to something that's so important that's missing: seeing him earn it. Not by dying, either. That feels like too easy a narrative to me, and skirts around the writers having to make the character truly earn it directly and not in abstract.



Yep - and I knew that's how it was going to happen. Too many characters crowd a story and you can't tell complicated threads properly. And as soon as we saw teases of Doomsday, I knew he'd be dying, and I knew that "death-as-instafix" was going to happen because Snyder/etc had too many threads going at once for it to be anything else. I also knew there was no way WB would let a 4-hour cut happen with such a tentpole movie that wasn't based on Hobbits, so there was no chance of what I'd see as proper narrative growth in that framework.



I agree so far as to say most of the important ways. Especially by the end of JL. But I still feel safe in saying they gave it a good coat of Bat-paint in a few noticeable ways.

I agree with everything you said, JAK. For me, we rarely saw Cavill Superman feeling happy in the cape and helping regular citizens that aren't Lois Lane or Ma. For me the biggest flaw of his Superman is that he looked burdened saving the world far too often. No joy to his Supes. The only time was during the First Flight scene. I don't think I'd like MOS as much without that scene. It's like the plane rescue from Returns.

JL tried to show he had a more optimistic outlook and intereactions with people before he died, but the Snyder fans don't like it. They say it's forced.. I really liked it because it was really missing from BvS.

[JAK]

I agree with everything you said, JAK. For me, we rarely saw Cavill Superman feeling happy in the cape and helping regular citizens that aren't Lois Lane or Ma. For me the biggest flaw of his Superman is that he looked burdened saving the world far too often. No joy to his Supes. The only time was during the First Flight scene. I don't think I'd like MOS as much without that scene. It's like the plane rescue from Returns.

JL tried to show he had a more optimistic outlook and intereactions with people before he died, but the Snyder fans don't like it. They say it's forced.. I really liked it because it was really missing from BvS.

Pretty much. Some will read the "rarely saw him happy" and think that means we wanted sunshine and rainbows for two hours, which isn't right. Being shown directly helping more regular citizens is a big one for me, and more of him learning and growing into the role. The First Flight scene is wonderful - and the comparison you made is apt: imo, it will be MoS's version of the plane rescue scene from SR. It'll be the "one good scene" that sticks with people (doesn't hurt that it was used in a lot of the advertising).

As for JL feeling forced... they're not wrong. It *is* forced. The narrative up to that point doesn't fully justify it. And it's especially forced after he comes back because (as I'd said before) "death-as-instafix" is as cheap as one would expect.

Having said all that, though, I enjoyed the heck out of Superman in JL. Best part of the movie. Even as over-the-top in it's whipspin of Superman's personality, it's just so refreshing after two movies of (what was, for me at least) sheer slog of depression that I found a part of myself noting that it was cheezy and a bit much, but the rest of me yelling "shut up and take the win!" LOL

[Powerboy]

I think both movies had their strong points and their flaws. SR tried to be an homage to the Donner Superman but also a modern Singer Superman and I don't think those two visions worked well together though it had it's strong points.

I didn't find Superman killing Zod to be the main problem but that some of the implied stuff that was the most important and explained why Superman was so highly regarded were skipped over while we were left with explicit stuff that would have people terrified of him.

[Powerboy]

Pretty much. Some will read the "rarely saw him happy" and think that means we wanted sunshine and rainbows for two hours, which isn't right. Being shown directly helping more regular citizens is a big one for me, and more of him learning and growing into the role. The First Flight scene is wonderful - and the comparison you made is apt: imo, it will be MoS's version of the plane rescue scene from SR. It'll be the "one good scene" that sticks with people (doesn't hurt that it was used in a lot of the advertising).

As for JL feeling forced... they're not wrong. It *is* forced. The narrative up to that point doesn't fully justify it. And it's especially forced after he comes back because (as I'd said before) "death-as-instafix" is as cheap as one would expect.

Having said all that, though, I enjoyed the heck out of Superman in JL. Best part of the movie. Even as over-the-top in it's whipspin of Superman's personality, it's just so refreshing after two movies of (what was, for me at least) sheer slog of depression that I found a part of myself noting that it was cheezy and a bit much, but the rest of me yelling "shut up and take the win!" LOL

Yes as corny as some of his lines were, I was thrilled to see a Superman who was finally positive and hopeful.

[adkal]

I'd say it's forgotten, but that's just me - much like how BvS showed a conflicted world until Superman died, but then JL says the world sucked since he died? (um....) But that does point to something that's so important that's missing: seeing him earn it. Not by dying, either. That feels like too easy a narrative to me, and skirts around the writers having to make the character truly earn it directly and not in abstract.

I wanted there to be five movies before the death (not five Superman ones, necessarily, but at least three with him specifically and perhaps two JL-based ones).

I also knew there was no way WB would let a 4-hour cut happen with such a tentpole movie that wasn't based on Hobbits, so there was no chance of what I'd see as proper narrative growth in that framework.

I will always want a 4 hour Superman movie.


Always.

[Agent Z]

Pretty much. Some will read the "rarely saw him happy" and think that means we wanted sunshine and rainbows for two hours, which isn't right. Being shown directly helping more regular citizens is a big one for me, and more of him learning and growing into the role. The First Flight scene is wonderful - and the comparison you made is apt: imo, it will be MoS's version of the plane rescue scene from SR. It'll be the "one good scene" that sticks with people (doesn't hurt that it was used in a lot of the advertising).

As for JL feeling forced... they're not wrong. It *is* forced. The narrative up to that point doesn't fully justify it. And it's especially forced after he comes back because (as I'd said before) "death-as-instafix" is as cheap as one would expect.

Having said all that, though, I enjoyed the heck out of Superman in JL. Best part of the movie. Even as over-the-top in it's whipspin of Superman's personality, it's just so refreshing after two movies of (what was, for me at least) sheer slog of depression that I found a part of myself noting that it was cheezy and a bit much, but the rest of me yelling "shut up and take the win!" LOL

It's pretty easy to come to that conclusion when people overplay just how unhappy this version of Superman actually was. Especially when they have to ignore numerous scenes with Lois, his parents, Jor-El or even scenes when he isn't actually unhappy to begin with.

And what's odd is that Snyder I think showed more scenes of Superman helping people that weren't Lois or plot relevant characters than previous Superman films actually did.

[stargazer01]

It's pretty easy to come to that conclusion when people overplay just how unhappy this version of Superman actually was. Especially when they have to ignore numerous scenes with Lois, his parents, Jor-El or even scenes when he isn't actually unhappy to begin with.

And what's odd is that Snyder I think showed more scenes of Superman helping people that weren't Lois or plot relevant characters than previous Superman films actually did.

The only time I can remember when he seemed somewhat friendly and happy (very mild smile) was when helped the girl from the fire in BvS, and even then we didn't see him talk. We didn't see him interact (like he did with those kids in JL) in a more friendly way with regular people. That's what was very missing in BvS, to see him enjoying being Superman. We went directly to the world hating Superman. We saw him rescuing people (the ship and the flood), but from afar, like some distant god. Sure those scenes looked great and epic, I'm not saying they sucked, but I would have liked to also see something like him saving someone from a fire and the people thanking him and hugging him and him having a bigger smile and saying something nice, like 'I'm glad I was able to help".


Like JAK said, we didn't need him always smiling. That's not realistic. But he seemed so serious most of the time and troubled. I can see why people didn't find him charming enough. Because for me Superman is charming as hell. BvS never allowed him to be like that. MOS did a bit more and I loved it and made me smile.

[JAK]

I wanted there to be five movies before the death (not five Superman ones, necessarily, but at least three with him specifically and perhaps two JL-based ones).

I completely agree. If we'd had that, there might still be movies definitely coming. But then, that would require WB be a different company... because playing catch-up to somebody else's game plan is generally their M.O.

I will always want a 4 hour Superman movie.

Always.

I would have said yes 100%, until MoS/BvS. So now I say it depends on who's telling the story... but just in general? Absolutely!

It's pretty easy to come to that conclusion when people overplay just how unhappy this version of Superman actually was. Especially when they have to ignore numerous scenes with Lois, his parents, Jor-El or even scenes when he isn't actually unhappy to begin with.

And what's odd is that Snyder I think showed more scenes of Superman helping people that weren't Lois or plot relevant characters than previous Superman films actually did.

Actually, it's easy to come to that conclusion because "being Superman sucks" is the overall thrust of the movies. Which would be fine, I suppose, if we'd had a Superman movie more than once every 6 years before this point. And S:TM had a whole collage of him helping people... I don't want or expect an exact correlation, but there is nothing like that in MoS. BvS does have something like that, but it's turned on it's head and largely feels cold and distant. I get they were going with the power aspect, and we can freeze frame for a half-second to catch a smile, etc.. but that's not the over-arching narrative to those scenes. Again, I get why, but it still means that truly getting those saves (or ones like them) from his pov is missing. Which means not a lot of time seeing him learn and form who he'll be as Superman. Which, to me, is kinda the point of having a "green" Superman in the first place. Unless they're just incapable to writing the character as his full potential and want to keep him "down" so they don't have to mess with that. Which, I have to be honest, kinda feels (imo) like that was the case. And now they'll never have a chance to prove otherwise.

The only time I can remember when he seemed somewhat friendly and happy (very mild smile) was when helped the girl from the fire in BvS, and even then we didn't see him talk. We didn't see him interact (like he did with those kids in JL) in a more friendly way with regular people. That's what was very missing in BvS, to see him enjoying being Superman. We went directly to the world hating Superman. We saw him rescuing people (the ship and the flood), but from afar, like some distant god. Sure those scenes looked great and epic, I'm not saying they sucked, but I would have liked to also see something like him saving someone from a fire and the people thanking him and hugging him and him having a bigger smile and saying something nice, like 'I'm glad I was able to help".


Like JAK said, we didn't need him always smiling. That's not realistic. But he seemed so serious most of the time and troubled. I can see why people didn't find him charming enough. Because for me Superman is charming as hell. BvS never allowed him to be like that. MOS did a bit more and I loved it and made me smile.

Which is ironic - a company that, for years, has complained about Superman having a relatability problem, finally puts out a movie and what do they do? Put space between him and the viewer. That's the last thing they should be doing. We need to be more inside his head and not just generally. Take the flood scene, for instance. Great opportunity. Show that shot of people reaching up to Superman and him looking like this stoic, distant god... but then pan to him and totally change the feel of everything. Show him doing almost what Sherlock Holmes did in the Downey movies (not great movies imo, but you get the idea), where he's trying to find the best ways to help everyone - maybe it doesn't go 100%, but you see him giving his all. You not only see that he has gears turning in his noggin', you see *how* he processes what's happening. THAT would have been amazing, and still would have shown how he was seen by the public. It's why the plane scene in Superman Returns works so well and why it's remembered when the rest isn't - you get a least a chunk of that.

[phantom1592]

I think both movies had their strong points and their flaws. SR tried to be an homage to the Donner Superman but also a modern Singer Superman and I don't think those two visions worked well together though it had it's strong points.

I didn't find Superman killing Zod to be the main problem but that some of the implied stuff that was the most important and explained why Superman was so highly regarded were skipped over while we were left with explicit stuff that would have people terrified of him.

For me, Killing Zod like that was 'the final straw'... it wasn't the MAIN problem, but it was a culmination of the problems. For me, the worst part of those movies were the Kents. When you have a Pa Kent telling Clark he should have let a busload of kids drown to protect his secret.... and Ma telling him that he doesn't owe anybody anything. THOSE were the big killers for me. It abandoned so much of 'who superman is' and more importantly 'why Superman is who he is' that I can't stand them.

JL on the other hand... It was the best DCUE movie yet. It still wasn't GREAT. The characterizations that were its foundations were so deep in the hole that it spent too much time trying to correct it... but the corrections were good and I enjoyed it. It was just a painful road to GET there...


SR COULD have been a great movie. Routh was a great superman. Spacey was a great Lex... the special effects were awesome..... But that STUPID 5 year trip, super-toddler, broken family subplot just tanked everything.

[MosSuperman]

Man of Steel is better and a lot more interesting than Superman Returns even though I'm not a big fan of the last 30 minutes of MoS.

[Agent Z]

I completely agree. If we'd had that, there might still be movies definitely coming. But then, that would require WB be a different company... because playing catch-up to somebody else's game plan is generally their M.O.



I would have said yes 100%, until MoS/BvS. So now I say it depends on who's telling the story... but just in general? Absolutely!





Actually, it's easy to come to that conclusion because "being Superman sucks" is the overall thrust of the movies. Which would be fine, I suppose, if we'd had a Superman movie more than once every 6 years before this point. And S:TM had a whole collage of him helping people... I don't want or expect an exact correlation, but there is nothing like that in MoS. BvS does have something like that, but it's turned on it's head and largely feels cold and distant. I get they were going with the power aspect, and we can freeze frame for a half-second to catch a smile, etc.. but that's not the over-arching narrative to those scenes. Again, I get why, but it still means that truly getting those saves (or ones like them) from his pov is missing. Which means not a lot of time seeing him learn and form who he'll be as Superman. Which, to me, is kinda the point of having a "green" Superman in the first place. Unless they're just incapable to writing the character as his full potential and want to keep him "down" so they don't have to mess with that. Which, I have to be honest, kinda feels (imo) like that was the case. And now they'll never have a chance to prove otherwise.



Which is ironic - a company that, for years, has complained about Superman having a relatability problem, finally puts out a movie and what do they do? Put space between him and the viewer. That's the last thing they should be doing. We need to be more inside his head and not just generally. Take the flood scene, for instance. Great opportunity. Show that shot of people reaching up to Superman and him looking like this stoic, distant god... but then pan to him and totally change the feel of everything. Show him doing almost what Sherlock Holmes did in the Downey movies (not great movies imo, but you get the idea), where he's trying to find the best ways to help everyone - maybe it doesn't go 100%, but you see him giving his all. You not only see that he has gears turning in his noggin', you see *how* he processes what's happening. THAT would have been amazing, and still would have shown how he was seen by the public. It's why the plane scene in Superman Returns works so well and why it's remembered when the rest isn't - you get a least a chunk of that.

The overall thrust of the movies is not "being Superman sucks". There is only so many ways I can say just how shallow this reading of the films actually are and how people have to ignore so much of what occurs in the films. We had a Superman overcoming insurmountable odds, overcoming self doubt and fear to do this. And it showed him come through all this with enough optimism to carry on fighting the good fight.

Yes he questioned himself. As Superman has been doing for the past decades. And in the end, he still chose to be a hero as Superman has done.

We saw the perspective of Superman multiple times throughout Snyder's films and how he viewed the world. We saw him aware of how people looked at him and trying to come to terms with it. People talk about Superman being the most human of superheroes but I wonder how many of them know what being human actually means.

[Powerboy]

For me, Killing Zod like that was 'the final straw'... it wasn't the MAIN problem, but it was a culmination of the problems. For me, the worst part of those movies were the Kents. When you have a Pa Kent telling Clark he should have let a busload of kids drown to protect his secret.... and Ma telling him that he doesn't owe anybody anything. THOSE were the big killers for me. It abandoned so much of 'who superman is' and more importantly 'why Superman is who he is' that I can't stand them.

JL on the other hand... It was the best DCUE movie yet. It still wasn't GREAT. The characterizations that were its foundations were so deep in the hole that it spent too much time trying to correct it... but the corrections were good and I enjoyed it. It was just a painful road to GET there...


SR COULD have been a great movie. Routh was a great superman. Spacey was a great Lex... the special effects were awesome..... But that STUPID 5 year trip, super-toddler, broken family subplot just tanked everything.

I think you nicely defined the problems.

I would personally say that "Wonder Woman" has been the best DC movie and definitely the most successful.

"Justice League" had the problem of "correcting" everything that had gone before. I put correcting in quotes because I'm not arguing quality pro or con. I'm arguing audience desires and expectations. It went overboard because it almost had to. It had to compensate and emphasize that this was going to be different and it had to take a sledgehammer approach because it had to do it and still tell a story that was already written. And it still didn't work. Working retail, I can tell you that people by the bucket loads never saw it because they just assumed it was going to be another MoS or BvS and people that did go see it generally said they were surprised that it wasn't as disappointing as they expected it to be. JL was dead in the water before it ever hit the theaters because of audience expectations from what had gone before. While it's true that WW succeeded and JL suffered bad word of mouth because it came across as almost two different movies (the original intention and what was on-screen), to believe it would have somehow been a success had it followed it's original intentions is naive because MoS and BvS were the problems to begin with.

The Jonathan Kent thing was intended to be the real deal in terms of how people would react to an invincible alien. I mean, hell, we live in a world where some pathetic refugees can be reinvented and fear-mongered into an invading army. But the movie went overboard with how far Jonathan Kent took it. Martha Kent's speech about not owing the world was intended as "Son, you can be whatever you want to be when you grow up" but, within the context, it just seemed more of "Let them be slaughtered if you don't want to be a hero." Yes, other versions of Kents said similar things- and realized and admitted they were wrong within almost no time.

But the big JL problem was the need to overcompensate to get things on track.

And on SR, yes, the ultimately pointless five year trip which was a plot device to create situations that were all the problematic parts that people hated.

[Powerboy]

The overall thrust of the movies is not "being Superman sucks". There is only so many ways I can say just how shallow this reading of the films actually are and how people have to ignore so much of what occurs in the films. We had a Superman overcoming insurmountable odds, overcoming self doubt and fear to do this. And it showed him come through all this with enough optimism to carry on fighting the good fight.

Yes he questioned himself. As Superman has been doing for the past decades. And in the end, he still chose to be a hero as Superman has done.

We saw the perspective of Superman multiple times throughout Snyder's films and how he viewed the world. We saw him aware of how people looked at him and trying to come to terms with it. People talk about Superman being the most human of superheroes but I wonder how many of them know what being human actually means.

To be fair, I really like Superman himself in MoS. He's trying his best in a horrible situation.

[JAK]

The overall thrust of the movies is not "being Superman sucks". There is only so many ways I can say just how shallow this reading of the films actually are and how people have to ignore so much of what occurs in the films. We had a Superman overcoming insurmountable odds, overcoming self doubt and fear to do this. And it showed him come through all this with enough optimism to carry on fighting the good fight.

I don't know... He starts off as a kid who has a hard time controlling his powers and it (rightfully) scares the crap out of him. He grows up feeling like (because he's told that) he has to hide his powers or people will have all manner of horrible reactions (which they do), up to and including having a front row seat to the only father he's known at that point dying and likely thinking he could have done something to maybe stop it. He's then an adult living a nomadic life and has to leave after he uses his powers to save someone for that same fear. He then makes one friend who wants to understand him (Lois) but before she can find a way to frame his story in a way to help, he's outted by an alien armada led by a simultaneously brilliant and yet somehow also brick-stupid general from his own race who says "come out or else." So he does, and is met with military mistrust (understandably) before being (willingly) handed off to the general's ship. Said general then proceeds to try and recruit him by showing him how everyone he knows/loves will die (well done Zod, I'm sure you thought that one through..) before breaking out and getting into a fight for the planet that ends in him having to kill the last remaining pieces of his planet and losing the simulation of his real father that he might have learned more from. After that, he's either over-worshipped or hated everywhere he goes, being manipulated by a young mogul with an inferiority complex and then hunted by another crazy rich guy with a bat fetish. One kidnaps his mother and says he has to kill the other, and is almost killed himself before sheer luck creates a bond between them. Then a giant mutant comes out of the pod, is almost nuked to death by a military who doesn't care about him as long as they get the monster, and after all that... about one minute after he declares that he's got his mindset figured out, he's dead.

That's a pretty heavy "being Superman sucks" right there. In that way, it's understandable that he's pissed when they bring him back, in fact iirc he even alludes to it in JL.

Now, I know that doesn't touch on that he found love, understanding, and an ally in Lois. Or that the people of Smallville (mostly) keep his secret. That Batman sees what he's become and is thusly inspired to correct himself. That, after dying, people unify around what Superman stood for (I would say that they do so because doing that "after the fact" is easy when one can just objectify without repercussion, but anyway). That's true, and some of the scenes where they are there are lovely (most of the bathtub scene), some are very well done (first flight). But for some people, myself included, those parts don't stick out as much when taking the works as a whole, which (again, for some of us) come off as considerably lesser than the sum of their parts.

Yes he questioned himself. As Superman has been doing for the past decades. And in the end, he still chose to be a hero as Superman has done.

That's not the problem, in and of itself. Seeing that on a piece of paper would raise no red flags at all. It's the (imo) heavy-handed execution that makes it so dour. I don't recall as much seeing him weighing what he does so much as trashing himself. To me, there's a difference between questioning and what almost looked more like self-loathing, and what I saw in the presentation of it looked more like the latter. And even if he's put into a place that's somewhere between the two or leaning toward the second, having him seem to be in that place for much of the second movie just grates after a while.

We saw the perspective of Superman multiple times throughout Snyder's films and how he viewed the world. We saw him aware of how people looked at him and trying to come to terms with it. People talk about Superman being the most human of superheroes but I wonder how many of them know what being human actually means.

For one thing, it means somewhat different things to different people, as does Superman. But I wanted to see more emphasis on the little moments in addition to what I've already said. We didn't get that. And most of the time when we saw Superman's perspective, it wasn't (mostly) in good moments or moments that let us get to know him as well (or in as many ways) as I felt we should. Again, not looking for all sunshine and rainbows, but some sense of balance would have been nice. If all was right with MoS and BvS, we never would have had such a harsh turn in tone to the point of near camp like we did in JL. BvS in particular is perplexing, because the outline isn't all that bad, even if it's generally regarded as such. It's the specific execution.

For me, none of these movies, not even JL, captured what I saw in that MoS trailer that made me so excited; a movie with gravitas that also reaches to the heavens with power, intensity, and uplifting impact. YMMV, but I still haven't seen *that* movie. Well..... I did - but it was Wonder Woman. Not a great final villain in that one, but overall a very powerful piece that struck the beautiful balance that I'd like to see. I'm hoping that *IF* the DCEU continues as it has been and Henry gets another crack at Superman (which I feel he absolutely deserves, all this isn't his fault and he was still great), that Patty Jenkins is the one leading the charge on it.

[JAK]

To be fair, I really like Superman himself in MoS. He's trying his best in a horrible situation.

I should clarify a bit - I don't like several of the character decisions they made for Superman in MoS, but "being Superman sucks" doesn't mean a dislike for him directly. There were a few moments, in fact, like the "arrest" interview scene, that were pretty close to note-perfect.