Uncanny X-Men #24 preview

[dragonmp93]

I think for that to change, the editorially mandated Cyclops was Right stance would have to go away. The X-men are littered with characters that have been butchered to prop up that story.

I thought that the editorial mandate was "Cyclops was WRONG" but backfired spectacularly and that is because it looks that the mandate was "Cyclops was Right" instead.

[WeaponX]

I thought that the editorial mandate was "Cyclops was WRONG" but backfired spectacularly and that is because it looks that the mandate was "Cyclops was Right" instead.

Yea except that whole the mandate was Cyclops was wrong was in response to people asking what with Scott always being right. Just like they just claimed they were considering killing all the avengers and replace them with the X-men, when ask if they were trying to cancle the X-men. Maybe its true but it sounds awfully convienant.

[Kisinith]

But what were they doing in Amazing that was hypocritical? This is the Amazing team Bendis is using and they didnt even mention Scott until the reunion issue and they put their animosity aside with the help of Kurt. The latest Amazing issues didnt even mention Scott. They get regressed back to snarly people with a labatomy as soon as Scott comes back into the picture.

Note Sundowns above post at how things get changed on a whim whenever the X-Men want to move past the whole Schism.

Also, I'm sorry if I came off as rude and shouldn't have classified as "fans." Remember... individuals.

No worries
Now as to the hypocrisy, Amazing was good until the bar scene and that was short. Its more of a comment on their general portrayal. Its also the easiest thing in the world to fix, just stop doing it. The thing is there is literally nothing Cyclops can do, short of dying, it’s a problem that exists solely in the JGS.

[People Of The Earth]

Well, at least they had better intel than the avengers, because (as is written in my signature) their intel was basically wolverine's sexual fantasies with jean grey, the visión/nightmare that the scarlet witch had and that video of the phoenix destroying a planet by just passing nearby.

Yeah, how come they decided to base their actions on the billions of beings extinguished in real time by the Phoenix while coming to Earth, instead of the shaky, unreliable, future intel that Cyclops didn't bother sharing with them to begin with ?

You are partially right, part of the problem is the non-sensical way Marvel handles time travel. Rather than holding to one approach they let the individual writer, decide how he wants it to work within his own story. This has led to instances where one change rewrites history and remakes the world, and others where it just sparks an alternate timeline.

In the X-Men books it has been used repeatedly exactly as Cyclops has, using Intel from the future to change the present and produce a better future. (Days of Future Past/Present, Age of Apocalypse, Maddrox and Cheny, Bishop's early appearances in fact it used to be Cables main shtick). So complaining that it was used that way again really doesn’t work.

Further it is Intel, in 3 observed cases path A produced result Z, path B produced result Y and path C produced result X. Result Z is pretty good so lets try path A to replicate that while result Y is beyond awful (Avengers take Hope, Phoenix destroys the Earth) so lets do everything we can to prevent that from happening. In none of these cases did he know all of the details but that’s not the point he was trying to replicate the most advantageous result (for everyone not just mutants).

Making the claim that using knowledge gleaned from time travel is worthless because there are an infinite number of possible worlds makes no sense in any scenario though. If, through time travel, you find that doing “X” in a crisis “Y” caused an entire world to be destroyed are you seriously going to say he should have done it anyway because there are infinite possibilities so it may not be valid? That my friend would have been an unreasonable gamble.

I never made the claim the knowledge gleaned was worthless, I just refuted the notion of "reliable" knowledge.
And if I'd been in Summers shoes, the very thing I would have at least tried before waring with the rest of the super-human community would have been to set up a meeting with the Avengers head of state.
Neutral ground, leader-to-leader, no 3rd parties allowed.
Also, people should stop holding onto the notion of "it used to be this way in X-canon, the Phoenix would never do that, poor Rachel yadi yada" when it comes down to AvX: clearly the event wasn't designed with the X-rules in play, so trying to work with said rules to make an argument on this event hold little sense.

I think for that to change, the editorially mandated Cyclops was Right stance would have to go away. The X-men are littered with characters that have been butchered to prop up that story.

You are making too much sense right now, it will backfire on you any minute I'm afraid.

[Kisinith]

Yeah, how come they decided to base their actions on the billions of beings extinguished in real time by the Phoenix while coming to Earth, instead of the shaky, unreliable, future intel that Cyclops didn't bother sharing with them to begin with ?

Probably because they didn't have that info because the Avengers didn't share it with them.

I never made the claim the knowledge gleaned was worthless, I just refuted the notion of "reliable" knowledge.

It was reliable, just not the whole story, and Cyclops’ actions were reasonable as it was the only intel he had.

And if I'd been in Summers shoes, the very thing I would have at least tried before waring with the rest of the super-human community would have been to set up a meeting with the Avengers head of state.
Neutral ground, leader-to-leader, no 3rd parties allowed.

You are making too much sense right now, it will backfire on you any minute I'm afraid. (sorry had to steal it, fit too well)
AvX was a crap story where everyone looks bad, including Cyclops. However because of the piss poor way it was constructed and because of the extensive work done in the X-Books in the years leading up to it and alongside of it, he looks less awful than the others in it. His actions up until he was possessed were reasonable with the information he had at hand.

[Fringe Division]

Indeed, Jen's actions at the school in the X-Men Legacy tie-ins and in Tabula Rasa in the Uncanny X-Men tie-ins show how super sympathetic she was.

[From The Shadows]

Maybe she just didn't believe it.
Maybe she was all like, "That's insane. Scott Summers kills Charles Xavier? No. That damn media, spinning things to make it look like ---"

Eh. It could happen.

I suppose, but the Avengers have been written in such a way to not give Cyclops the benefit of the doubt, though She-Hulk seems to have been a bit more sympathetic to the X-Men on the whole. In the past anyway, depending on who is writing her.

[useridgoeshere]

Indeed, Jen's actions at the school in the X-Men Legacy tie-ins and in Tabula Rasa in the Uncanny X-Men tie-ins show how super sympathetic she was.

Hey, she only attacked those kids while invading their school because she thought they were "monsters". It's an easy mistake, so I can see why no one at the JGS cares. They probably secretly agree with her.

[LittlePriest]

There is nothing unreliable about information from time travel. Just because it would benefit your argument does not make it so.

There can be no better source for what will happen tomorrow. You can check every weather service on the planet and inspect every climate model and trends over the last decade or you can ask the guy stepping out of his time machine carrying the umbrella.

[Sundowhn]

No, I do not. I do not for a single second believe that when Wolverine supposedly stopped being "edgy" (even though he became even more of a murderous lunatic than he had been for quite some time while pretending to suddenly give a crap about The Children) that it was done with the intention of propping Cyclops.

Then you missed the scene post AvX where Cyclops informed Wolverine they were trading roles? That was in the books and not even necessary to be observant over patterns.

Wolverine went from the lone-wolf rebel without a cause to a school-marm who was also in X-Force (that title actually fit) and that Avengers guy on the side because someone has to be working with that authoritarian government and all -- all the while, Cyclops continues to get the spotlight as the 'true' leader of the X-Men with his whole revolution business. That's not even talking about what was done to Beast, of Storm being portrayed as brainless throughout (as well as most of the rest of the side of Schism that disagreed with Cyclops) and Kitty being regressed to 14 again so she could runaway to the cool side.

Except that the editorially mandated Cyclops was Right stance doesn’t actually exist. He screws up frequently in fact. First under Gillian then more under Bendis. In some cases he screws up spectacularly. Cyclops isn’t now nor has he ever been right about everything.

The problem here isn’t Cyclops, its schism and it’s the JGS. In order to push the idea of a divide in the X-Men it was decided that one faction led by Wolverine would be based solely in opposition to one man, Cyclops. The only way that works is if he justifies their complaints, so unless Marvel was going to completely throw Cyclops under the bus (which was never going to happen, its Marvel they don’t allow that kind of change) Its doomed to fail. This is not an editorial fail, it’s a writer fail. Who came up with Schism? Aaron. What book pushed schism the hardest? WatXM. Unless Cyclops was written as a total megalomaniacal loon the JGS is going to look bad.

Want to fix the JGS? Its simple and has nothing to do with Cyclops, just stop pushing the schism. Literally the only thing Cyclops has done is not be as awful as the JGS want to paint him as. They are and have always been the problem because they are and have always been the ones pushing it.

Disagree. Cyclops has come out in story to be justified about everything but Xavier -- and Xavier has been vilified and the whole easy out of "not in control" has been bandied since the first. Bendis is, in fact, rewriting the X-universe to reflect the days of God Loves, Man Kills in order to facilitate the need for a revolution, conveniently ignoring that the X-Men have been a public presence for years now and that mutants were a very popular emulated sub-culture in the Utopia era. Cyclops has not once fallen on his face in the past 10 years. Editorial won't allow it. In fact, everyone in story who perceives him as the villain or extremist (at best) is portrayed as narrow-minded and idiotic, even so far as how the Avengers have been shown in the X-Men franchise (forget how Cap acted in Civil War and all).


And the idea of Schism was absolutely not wrapped around Cyclops in concept, though it got turned into a pissing contest between he and Wolverine fast enough. Cyke was incidental. It was founded on a difference in philosophy. The fail came when Marvel decided Cyclops was right and refused to allow the other guys to have a relevant voice in the franchise. We get Cyke's revolution and edginess and instead of the JGS getting a voice and premise, we get Remender writing assimilation speeches in UA. There is no middle ground, which is the position the JGS should have filled. Coincidence is one or two books not finding that premise and voice, but every book on that side falls into the same pattern. That's mandate. Marvel isn't giving them relevance because they're pushing the other side and if the JGS was written to fill that middle ground spot, Cyclops would come across as the cult leader extremist he is.

I love that you pick out that part, but ignore Claremont outright destroying your beloved Aaron's version of Wolverine. So I guess Gold-side-hating-Bendis/editorial is sympatico with Claremont there. Claremont blaming Bendis for that is hilarious anyway, almost as sad as you pulling quotes out of context to fuel your bizarre obsessions. I talked to Claremont shortly after Nightcrawler was announced (y'know when any and all refused to listen to what he had to say) and he is not up to date with anything at all and all he heard from editorial was that Cyclops, Kitty and all were "the dark side." So much for the push for Cyclops was right...

Proof is in the pudding. Where is that middle voice? Alonso has gone on record to talk about his fanboyism, so I really have no idea how that's even a question.

So, what Claremont said to you was right, but not what he said in a public podcast? Interesting. Claremont said in the podcast that he and the other writers weren't determining franchise direction, that 'Brian and Axel' were. Not Axel and Marts, interestingly enough.

I liked Aaron's Wolverine in the solo, not in WatXM. There was a difference.

You are making too much sense right now, it will backfire on you any minute I'm afraid.

Yep, see above.

[People Of The Earth]

I suppose, but the Avengers have been written in such a way to not give Cyclops the benefit of the doubt, though She-Hulk seems to have been a bit more sympathetic to the X-Men on the whole.

Not a chance, she was part of the strike team who extracted all these prisoners in Illyana's little "Limbo experiment" in the Himalayas...
She confronted both the Rasputins,
Heck, she confronted the P5 from day 1.
She saw first hand how crazy dangerous they were.
She was on the very plane that went after Frost and Summers for the final battle.
There's no actual reason for her being lenient with Scott all of a sudden.

"That's insane..Scott Summers kills Charles Xavier? No. That damn media, spinning things to make it look like ---"...
That right there just doesn't fly.

[Mr. Brightside]

Cyclops didn't try to control the Phoenix not once he just revealed in its power and his arrogance that he was right. And Xavier wasn't threatening to make Scott brain dead he was threatening to shut him down so they could figure how to de-Phoenix him. And like a little bratt he threw a fit and killed Xavier. No self defense just selfishness of wanting his new toy.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The moment they came back Scott was already meditating to keep it in control and he even went to the damn moon to get advice from Moon Jean.
At least Tony didn't nmega screw up and blast it on Wolvie. It's canon he goes Dark Phoenix with half of it

I do think it's odd that folks act like he didn't or couldn't have control over the phoenix. Wasn't Colossus about to kill Kitty and wipe out the entire Jean Grey School before he got ahold of himself? I mean he had better reason that Scott to kill (Kitty was in mega bitch Aaron mode).

Suck it up, Scotty! You screwed up!

To Colossus: oh, welcome back, brother!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do remember Wolvie, Rogue and Cie tried to steal students away from Utopia within the pages of Carey's Legacy, right? Cyclops and the rest of the grown-ups weren't even around to make their case. Not quite sure what's up with the weird metrics, here. Is this about recruitment drives being wrong if you're upfront and honest about it?

Wolverine LITERALLY kidnapped Quire...............

In lieu of Miss Frost's remarkable reformation and stalwart dedication to guiding the next generation of mutants, I entrust and beholden to her my estate, cerebro, and all of its resources, in the hope that she will continue educating and protecting tomorrow's youth and carry on the legacy that I've striven to uphold as founder of the X-Men.

To Scott and Jean Summers, I bequeath my summer home in the Hamptons, my cottage in the South of Switzerland, so that you might retire and start, if you haven't already, the non-time-displaced-family I know you've always wanted. Sorry Rachel and Nathan.

Per our conversation back in graduate school, for having warned me about Moira Kinross, and leading me to Cairo, to Illyana Rasputin I bequeath my private library, collection of global artifacts, and the full contents of my savings account and safety deposit boxes.

To Robert Drake, upon my passing, I release the mental blocks stunting his emotional and mutant development.

To Hank Mccoy, I leave my collection of exclusive Jumbo Carnation fedoras, the Mind Gem and my exclusive membership in a shady & secret organization.

To my dear friend Erik Lehnsherr, I leave Rogue.

And lastly, to Rogue, I leave an incomprehensible and abrupt grudge against Wanda Maximoff.

Yours truly,
Chuckles.

*Liked*

But I also think it was a dumb choice to have She-Hulk be the one to lose her cool at the school and react poorly due to seeing a "monster". She-Hulk? Really? The cousin of Bruce Banner, long hunted and persecuted for being a monster? *rolls eyes*

Hadn't thought of that D:

Thank you. All these Cyclops homers like to pretend like the Phoenix has never ever been controlled and just instantly turns you crazy. It also cracks me up how they act like they can't fathom why Beast is angry. Like if their brother killed their father in a mental episode they'd go "Oh well he couldn't control himself so who cares if he killed Dad infront of me."

I understand. I just don't understand why he whines so much. Rachel was mad at Scott, and so was Hope when Cable "died", and they kept their cool instead of endangering timelines, stalking, and whining. Not to mention, the only people fully controlling the Phoenix are intended users, not people who have it blasted on them by marvels #2 douche.

Wait, am I to believe that Wolverine telling Cyclops that Wolverine is allowed to be awful because that's his thing, but Cyclops not sticking to his boy scout thing is a valid reason to hate Cyclops, "So would you please go back to being good to balance out my horribleness kthanxies????" is supposed to be an example of Wolverine not being a hypocritical douche?

YES.

uatu showed up to hank's bed just to tell him how awful of a person he was and yet beast continues to focus all of his energy on cyclops as if scotty is the worst person to walk the planet.

Yes.

But all of that's completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Jason Aaron had Wolverine stop acting like a hypocrite who still very much hates Cyclops as he is rather than the idealized version in everyone's heads.

I like how people are trying to go: Well, wolvie had a beer with Scott, see he wants it to end, but Wolverine was being all "You messed up. I used to mess up, but now u messed up. I wish u wouldn't mess up The End", instead of a, "let's talk it all out, let's not get out of here until I can stomach you in my school instead of having my whole damn staff hiss at you the moment they see u." Then again, that would end the Schism, so I guess not.......

[From The Shadows]

Not a chance, she was part of the strike team who extracted all these prisoners in Illyana's little "Limbo experiment" in the Himalayas...
She confronted both the Rasputins,
Heck, she confronted the P5 from day 1.
She saw first hand how crazy dangerous they were.
She was on the very plane that went after Frost and Summers for the final battle.
There's no actual reason for her being lenient with Scott all of a sudden.

"That's insane..Scott Summers kills Charles Xavier? No. That damn media, spinning things to make it look like ---"...
That right there just doesn't fly.

I meant depending on who wrote her. I should have been more clear. I feel she was sympathetic in Luis Astonishing run and maybe Bendis was going with that. Even when I said that I meant it as a longshot. But, yeah, Jen doesnt look good.

[Fringe Division]

No, I dont remember incorrectly.

You most definitely do remember incorrectly, if you remember me speaking of Aaron the way Bendis is routinely spoken of by certain posters here, one in particular.

I have absolutely never once suggested that Jason Aaron tried to get another writer removed from a book for any reason. I have absolutely never once suggested that Jason Aaron went out of his way to get a book downgraded for any reason. I have absolutely never once suggested Jason Aaron intentionally mucked with another writer's plans out of pettiness. I have absolutely never once made up out of whole cloth elaborate scenarios involving Jason Aaron doing something underhanded. I have absolutely never once blamed Jason Aaron for something he had, according to all official sources, nothing to do with. If you insist that I have, you are simply a liar.

But some people are saying those things about Bendis.

I do find it really weird how someone is allowed to accuse Bendis of basically getting someone fired considering CBR seems to support Marvel's POV that trying to get someone fired is one of the worst things you could do to a person.

[Fringe Division]

Then you missed the scene post AvX where Cyclops informed Wolverine they were trading roles? That was in the books and not even necessary to be observant over patterns.

Wolverine went from the lone-wolf rebel without a cause to a school-marm who was also in X-Force (that title actually fit) and that Avengers guy on the side because someone has to be working with that authoritarian government and all -- all the while, Cyclops continues to get the spotlight as the 'true' leader of the X-Men with his whole revolution business. That's not even talking about what was done to Beast, of Storm being portrayed as brainless throughout (as well as most of the rest of the side of Schism that disagreed with Cyclops) and Kitty being regressed to 14 again so she could runaway to the cool side.

Just so we're clear here, you believe Jason Aaron's intention was to prop Cyclops?

As for the "true leader" thing, that's not coming from anyone at Marvel.

You want to talk about Storm, but I notice you ignored the fact that writers like Cornell, Wood and Latour have made her an ineffectual, Wolverine-obsessed moron. Do you think that was dictated to the writers because of some Cyclops-related mandate? Storm stuck around after Schism to give Cyclops what was presented as a much-needed different perspective. She was shown as being in control of her squad and defying Cyclops. Compare that to how she's been portrayed once she moved over to the Jean Grey School, save for her solo.

If you think Aaron taking Kitty and giving her nothing to do but flirt with Iceman and get impregnated with Brood is either a step up from how Bendis has used her, having her constantly challenge Cyclops, or that making her one of Iceman's groupies was somehow also part of ruining Kitty to prop up Cyclops, I don't even know what to say, frankly.