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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    What's Superman's problem? It's not the immigrant experience, because he was raised on earth (and white). The only time his home planet situation is addressed is when Kal tells Zod that earth had it's chance.

    No, Superman's problem is that he's too powerful and people aren't nice to him because of it. Yeah...
    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    This might of had more impact if they had done it right in the movies. Supes was more the weird kid than the immigrant and later in life was just a handsome white dude. Batman's PTSD would have been more relatable if he hadn't slipped out of it from his mother having the same name as Supes' mother. Batman was basically fine in Justice league, real PTSD doesn't get cured that fast. Wonder Woman's introduction was in BvS, which showed a person out to keep her secret and not interested in helping the world until the last minute change of heart. All the things you listed that made them relatable where not presented well.
    You guys are aware that Superman is always handsome and white, right? Unless it's Calvin Ellis.

    And he's always raised on Earth and still a metaphor for an immigrant. He's here illegally, and he learns that he's adopted, and has to grow up knowing he's different than anyone else even if he can "pass" for a normal white dude. His being white doesn't change that metaphor, it can also extend to closeted LGBT individuals who are pressured into "blending in" with "normal" society.

    Wonder Woman is in more than just BvS. She's relateable to those who didn't grow up in a "traditional nuclear family" home, has an idealistic if naive world view that's going to be challenged by reality and the struggle to hold onto your goodness and love in the face of it, and losing a loved one through unnatural means/violence (Antiope and Steve).

    How effective the films are in executing these ideas is another debate, but complaints about relatability are far from the major concern. And the wider belief Marvel's heroes are more relateable than the DC heroes even in the comics has always been BS. The Marvel heroes are just as larger than life, they just also have more melodrama injected into their lives. With the more nuanced character writing starting in the Bronze Age forward (and even the archetypes the older DC comics hit upon, particularly with Superman and Wonder Woman, are very complex), and cross pollination of creators, it's become even more of a fallacy.

  2. #17
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    I mean being a handsome white dude isn't an issue for any MCU protagonist that isn't T'Challa or Luke Cage.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-23-2018 at 04:10 PM.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I mean being a handsome white dude isn't an issue for any MCU protagonist that isn't T'Challa or Luke Cage.
    Exactly.

    And hell, it took them several movies before they even tried a movie headlined by someone who wasn't a white dude with T'Challa.

  4. #19
    Amazing Member ultrarider7's Avatar
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    And T'Challa is still a handsome fella so I don't know what the heck he was talking about, every MCU main character is handsome. I can't believe there are people out there still eating Marvel's BS about their characters being more relatable, it's just marketing ploy. DECADES of DC comics can prove wrong anyone with that mentality.

  5. #20
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    And he's always raised on Earth and still a metaphor for an immigrant. He's here illegally, and he learns that he's adopted, and has to grow up knowing he's different than anyone else even if he can "pass" for a normal white dude. His being white doesn't change that metaphor, it can also extend to closeted LGBT individuals who are pressured into "blending in" with "normal" society.
    What would be the equivalent action be for Superman though? His sexuality, racial appearance, and gender aren't out of line for "normal" earth Caucasian. Even saying his culture doesn't really hold because he knows little of it and doesn't seem particularly interested in it outside curiosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I mean being a handsome white dude isn't an issue for any MCU protagonist that isn't T'Challa or Luke Cage.
    None of them are metaphors for immigrants though to my knowledge.

  6. #21
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    What would be the equivalent action be for Superman though? His sexuality, racial appearance, and gender aren't out of line for "normal" earth Caucasian. Even saying his culture doesn't really hold because he knows little of it and doesn't seem particularly interested in it outside curiosity.


    None of them are metaphors for immigrants though to my knowledge.
    His gender, race and sexuality line up, hence why he's "passing". He's posing as the legitimate son of the Kents and is gonna hear negative opinions about aliens (both the terrestrial and extraterrestrial variety) from people who don't know the guy with glasses is one. Same way a closeted gay man will hear ignorant slurs from surrounding people who are not aware that they are indirectly insulting him.

    Is this a criticism of film Superman or Superman in general? Because even in the film he's bullied as a child and spends his entire adult life traveling abroad and following clues to his identity and excitedly tells his mother about learning more of his true heritage, all of which is more than just curiosity.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    His gender, race and sexuality line up, hence why he's "passing". He's posing as the legitimate son of the Kents and is gonna hear negative opinions about aliens (both the terrestrial and extraterrestrial variety) from people who don't know the guy with glasses is one. Same way a closeted gay man will hear ignorant slurs from surrounding people who are not aware that they are indirectly insulting him.
    Aliens were just theory before him. When they weren't it's because his people tried to destroy all humanity. People are not going to like aliens after that. That's not really the same thing as being gay.

    Is this a criticism of film Superman or Superman in general? Because even in the film he's bullied as a child and spends his entire adult life traveling abroad and following clues to his identity and excitedly tells his mother about learning more of his true heritage, all of which is more than just curiosity.
    He was bullied as the "weird kid", not as an alien. Someone with epilepsy would have gotten a similar experience without being an alien. He was excited because it was new. But he went a long time without bothering. And in BvS didn't seem too keen on acting kryptonian either overtly or covertly. Just being Clark Kent and Superman. Being Clark Kent is being a human and Superman has powers kryptonians didn't have on their native world and thus is nothing like them.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Remember, Superman was created by two Jewish kids in the 1930s. The passing outsider stuff isn't accidental. The disguise being glasses (hiding in plain sight) isn't accidental.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You might find Rocket relatable. Doesn't mean everyone does. Because everyone has different experiences.
    Well, is there any discussion to be had, then?

    Not everyone is going to find Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman relatable either.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member Sain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Well, is there any discussion to be had, then?

    Not everyone is going to find Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman relatable either.
    Which is a boat I believe I am in, but this isnt necessarily a bad thing, I don't think. I still love them, but for different reasons. I need to ponder on this more.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Well, is there any discussion to be had, then?

    Not everyone is going to find Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman relatable either.
    When did I claim otherwise?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    What would be the equivalent action be for Superman though? His sexuality, racial appearance, and gender aren't out of line for "normal" earth Caucasian. Even saying his culture doesn't really hold because he knows little of it and doesn't seem particularly interested in it outside curiosity.


    None of them are metaphors for immigrants though to my knowledge.
    No but you and the cool thatguy also claim they're more relatable than Superman.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Aliens were just theory before him. When they weren't it's because his people tried to destroy all humanity. People are not going to like aliens after that. That's not really the same thing as being gay.


    He was bullied as the "weird kid", not as an alien. Someone with epilepsy would have gotten a similar experience without being an alien. He was excited because it was new. But he went a long time without bothering. And in BvS didn't seem too keen on acting kryptonian either overtly or covertly. Just being Clark Kent and Superman. Being Clark Kent is being a human and Superman has powers kryptonians didn't have on their native world and thus is nothing like them.
    He was viewed as the weird kid because he was an alien.

    Last I checked, being bullied in school isn't an unrealistic experience regardless of the reason.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He was viewed as the weird kid because he was an alien.

    Last I checked, being bullied in school isn't an unrealistic experience regardless of the reason.
    As the only minority at my school when I was his age in the movie trust me there is a difference between being the local weird kid and the "other". His alien abilities caused people to consider him weird, but they didn't think he wasn't human. Immigrants and minorities often don't get that luxury depending on the area. They don't also get cool powers or look like the majority race to take away the sting of being an "other".

    No but you and the cool thatguy also claim they're more relatable than Superman.
    I said the things you listed where not done as well as you were implying and in some cases even compared to similar stuff marvel did. I didn't make any other claims because relatable is subjective.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    As the only minority at my school when I was his age in the movie trust me there is a difference between being the local weird kid and the "other". His alien abilities caused people to consider him weird, but they didn't think he wasn't human. Immigrants and minorities often don't get that luxury depending on the area. They don't also get cool powers or look like the majority race to take away the sting of being an "other".


    I said the things you listed where not done as well as you were implying and in some cases even compared to similar stuff marvel did. I didn't make any other claims because relatable is subjective.
    You make such a claim in this very post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    As the only minority at my school when I was his age in the movie trust me there is a difference between being the local weird kid and the "other". His alien abilities caused people to consider him weird, but they didn't think he wasn't human. Immigrants and minorities often don't get that luxury depending on the area. They don't also get cool powers or look like the majority race to take away the sting of being an "other".
    People with insecurities aren't normally science experiments either but that didn't stop the cool thatguy from claiming Rocket was more relatable.

    Btw, there have been people who talked about how Snyder's DCEU films helped them with their depression.

    That doesn't happen if your protagonist isn't relatable.

    Anyway, I'm done with this conversation and I think the thread has been derailed enough.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-23-2018 at 11:40 PM.

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