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  1. #16
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    this isn't news this is readily apparent to anyone who has been following this character for the last 20 odd years. This is what happens when people without vision man the helm.

    Fortunately WB is suffering some executives around and maybe someone will finally get it
    The J-man

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWarriorWolf View Post
    No. Just, no. This says “I’ve only taken a cursory glance at the character and am making an assumption.”

    Here is a full list of his powers, Post Crisis: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.red...dc_postcrisis/

    And New 52: https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...zam_dc_new_52/

    Yes, he has some powers similar to Superman, and Superman has some powers Captain Marvel does not, but the Shazam power set is far from “diet Superman.”

    I... don't see what that's supposed to tell us. There are lots of examples for his powers... but nothing really 'new'. He's really really strong. He's really really durable. He has superspeed and Flies. Which is pretty much Superman but without the x-ray vision, heat vision super hearing, freeze breath, etc. etc... Which while I dislike the derogatory tone of 'Diet Superman'... I can't really say it's wrong. It does have a 'All the Superman but with fewer calories....

    The only odd thing out is the lightning and that's been pretty inconsistent over the years... but it is strictly his.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member SilverWarriorWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I... don't see what that's supposed to tell us. There are lots of examples for his powers... but nothing really 'new'. He's really really strong. He's really really durable. He has superspeed and Flies. Which is pretty much Superman but without the x-ray vision, heat vision super hearing, freeze breath, etc. etc... Which while I dislike the derogatory tone of 'Diet Superman'... I can't really say it's wrong. It does have a 'All the Superman but with fewer calories....

    The only odd thing out is the lightning and that's been pretty inconsistent over the years... but it is strictly his.
    The lightning has been developing further as the years goes on, but it’s been a staple in his fighting for quite as while.

    So, answer me this: When has Superman been an omniglot? https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0BxTceDy3...RST-OF-ALL.jpg

    Been able to see through illusions? http://pm1.narvii.com/6408/17881e73c...b8c836d_hq.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/LPobnSA_d.jpg?ma...idelity=medium

    Teleport objects? https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8325264128/hD74A4160/

    Been able to share out powers? https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...241442a332a748

    Or had spell-casting/enchanting? https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...29+021-019.jpg

    Not to mention, the lack of a weakness to magic.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr...en-powers/amp/ (Admittedly, he’s not immortal or unaging, but rest apply).

    All I’m getting from OP is that they prefer Superman. If that’s the case, that’s ok. Enjoy Superman, but what they’re suggesting is turning Billy into Superman 2.0 and claiming that’s what he’s supposed to be.

    He’s evolved into a similar but separate character, with his own cast, set up, and storyline. He should stay that way.
    Last edited by SilverWarriorWolf; 09-22-2018 at 02:41 PM.

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icefan View Post
    Comics! They're not just not for kids anymore!
    Lol!
    I think the 'just' was a typo.
    Or they were trying to candy coat it, by showing that kids could technically still read them, they just probably won't because they wouldn't relate to the more adult themes.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWarriorWolf View Post
    The lightning has been developing further as the years goes on, but it’s been a staple in his fighting for quite as while.

    So, answer me this: When has Superman been an omniglot? https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0BxTceDy3...RST-OF-ALL.jpg

    Been able to see through illusions? http://pm1.narvii.com/6408/17881e73c...b8c836d_hq.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/LPobnSA_d.jpg?ma...idelity=medium

    Teleport objects? https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8325264128/hD74A4160/

    Been able to share out powers? https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...241442a332a748

    Or had spell-casting/enchanting? https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...29+021-019.jpg

    Not to mention, the lack of a weakness to magic.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr...en-powers/amp/ (Admittedly, he’s not immortal or unaging, but rest apply).

    All I’m getting from OP is that they prefer Superman. If that’s the case, that’s ok. Enjoy Superman, but what they’re suggesting is turning Billy into Superman 2.0 and claiming that’s what he’s supposed to be.

    He’s evolved into a similar but separate character, with his own cast, set up, and storyline. He should stay that way.

    Those are some better examples

    Although, Silver Age Superman could still do most of that too... Superman always knows all the languages... Usually with his kryptonian super-intelligence... even alien ones too. His vision has also seen though Illusions (I also think it's interesting that MARY has the same powers.... but she WAS tricked by the illusion. I'm not sure what that means exactly... Silver Age and Golden Age Superman... there wasn't much Billy could do that Clark couldn't duplicate.

    The spellcasting is new. Honestly, I don't like it. I LIKE Billy as a more grounded 'realistic' if that word applies version of Superman. Someone who has all Superman's highlights... but doesn't get too ridiculous with EVERY POWER EVAR!!!


    Personally the way Superman has been written the last decade or so... and the movies... I frankly just prefer Captain Marvel. The CLASSIC Captain Marvel and really do not WANT him changed, powered up, or modernized. He's really perfect the way he is.

  6. #21
    goldenknight2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jody Garland View Post
    What's wrong with Billy being on the Justice League? Mentally, he's not really a child, what with the Wisdom of Solomon kicking around in his skull, and physically he's obviously not. Plus, he's been on teams going back to the Bronze Age, where he lead the one-shot Shazam's Squadron of Justice. Agewise, he's probably a little older than 7- I've always pegged him at around 12 or 13, minimum.
    there nothing wrong with that, as long Billy is over 13 years old. Billy and Captain Marvel are supposed to be separate beings. in Fawcett years, Billy and Captain Marvel are separate beings

  7. #22
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    No. Just, no. This says “I’ve only taken a cursory glance at the character and am making an assumption.”
    Foh. . . My next statement is about the inadequacies writers have shown from lack of utilizing the wisdom.

    agree that the movie looks good, and it is frustrating how little the Wisdom of Solomon is utilized.
    Yeah because I'm right.

    First Thunder, Multiversity: Thunderwold, Conversion: Shazam, The Power of Shazam, and, controversial as it is, plenty of people love Curse of Shazam.
    Thats 5. but wait....
    One of which is "Curse of Shazam" and as you astutely point out plenty of people like it , but the fact that plenty of people HATE it doesn't give u a point. . .
    4....
    Another of which is Multiversity which is arguably an example arguing for ME, since it takes place outside the main Dcuo so 3 ( you have to up the number to raise someone)
    ... and which was kind of my point in a way. Like so many other characters he pales in the face of the "dc holy trinity". . . and wait for it....


    Which while I dislike the derogatory tone of 'Diet Superman'... I can't really say it's wrong. It does have a 'All the Superman but with fewer calories....

    Its NOT because I "Feel" that way about him... it because DC TREATS him that way. . .
    and honestly the cursory glance is what person OUTSIDE the comics realm i.e brought in by movies or tv shows or what have you.... the cursory glance is all they're going to get.

    Regardless of my argument style... the truth is too many people in D.C. comics feel that way. Proving me wrong on the forums doesn't move any needles or anything.

    I'm just saying there's MULTIPLE issues there... and his issues when it comes to the justice league is the same as everyone ELSE in the DCU who isn't on the front cover of the justice league:
    Gravity.

    The gravity given to a character draws people in, and in doing so gives it more weight, and draws more people in. . .

    Its hard for that to take place when Billy Batson gets his neck snapped in the injustice video game by superman, and on DCUO, Black adam gets face lazered by superman...
    Let me go on... in flash point, black adam gets his powers stripped by The Outsider and chumped kept in glass by the martian manhunter, in the justice league cartoons. In Superman/Shazam!: The Return of Black Adam...
    Superman gets top billing. Oh, and back to flashpoint... wonder woman uses the lasso of truth to force Captain Marvel to revert... something that should NEVER happen in any universe....
    In justice league: WAR... he's used as comic relief in a bad way and is shown to be an immature, horny kid, who's more in the way that anything else. . . who is a fanboy for cyborgs football career.

    The best showing the Power of Shazam has ever gotten in popular media is Justice League: Crisis on 2 earths and even there they were a cadre under the control of Superwoman.
    *Sigh*...

    The gravity of the situation is that 2 people outside comics... any in my opinion to the powers that be inside dc... He appears as a Diet Superman.

    Id like to see him aged up a bit personally, because I think it would allow them to add "GRAVITAS" to the stories.

    Getting "GRAVITY" back to the character again "I THINK" would mean making the Power of Shazam being something worth having. Especially when being stacked up vs other heroes and villians
    of prominence.

    "You have the Blood of the Old Gods. The Old Gods, are dead" would be a thing that applies to Billy and his POWERS. Especially if the old gods died and each left a portion of themselves to be entrusted to a Quasi-Mortal Champion.
    Then the Wisdom of Solomon would have to transcend time... but let wisdom be some eternal quality and there you go.

    ...but it does little good to have the stamina of atlas if superman can outlast atlas. Nor the speed of mercury if Flash is faster than mercury. What good is Superhuman wisdom it has no... effect in stories."

    What should the ONUS of these stories really be? I think if its perpetually "Big" meets "Superheroes" the story has been told and will always revert to this null space all us fans are in now. No matter how much comic people hate change.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member SilverWarriorWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    What should the ONUS of these stories really be? I think if its perpetually "Big" meets "Superheroes" the story has been told and will always revert to this null space all us fans are in now. No matter how much comic people hate change.
    Not gonna adress everything piece by piece since you commented that it’s not going to sway you one way or another.

    As for what his ONUS should be, it should be a boy who faced suffering and rose above it to become something great. I’ll admit, it’s something recent versions haven’t gotten, but that’s the fault of the writer, not the character. All the versions I brought up (save Curse) play to that angle.

    Most of your comments are that DC doesn’t take him seriously. And you’re right. They don’t take him seriously, but I don’t see that as a flaw in Shazam, I see it as a flaw in DC writing.

    Why does he keep getting killed? Because they want cheap shock value, and killing kids gets shock value.

    Why does he keep getting resigned to comic relief? Because DC doesn’t believe kids can be serious without being brooding jerks.

    IMO, Billy doesn’t need to be changed. He needs to be written with a sense of dignity, and DC is refusing to do that.

    Turning him into Superman isn’t going to help, as DC doesn’t want a second Superman. They have been miswriting the character, and all turning him older will do is have another miswritten adult.

    Tl;dr Captain Marvel needs a better writer, not a transformation into Superman. That said, you and I are clearly not going to agree on this.
    Last edited by SilverWarriorWolf; 09-22-2018 at 05:14 PM.

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenknight2018 View Post
    there nothing wrong with that, as long Billy is over 13 years old. Billy and Captain Marvel are supposed to be separate beings. in Fawcett years, Billy and Captain Marvel are separate beings
    Wrong.

    What you suggest is more like dissociative personality disorder.
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  10. #25
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    No, that's accurate. In the Golden Age, Captain Marvel and Billy were treated as separate beings, akin to Captain Marvel and Rick Jones. It wasn't clear where Cap was when Billy was on Earth, but it was more like trading places. In recent decades, the only real homage to this has been Miller's DKSA, which brought the idea back, befitting its Golden Age styled Cap.

  11. #26
    Fantastic Member MarkRodriguez09's Avatar
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    Keep him as is. The whole thing that makes him different is the fact that he is a kid that becomes a super powered adult. If he was an adult gaining super powers by yelling SHAZAM, it wouldn't be much different than any other adult superhero slipping into their costume or armor.

    That remind me. What is Black Adam's deal? Is he Black Adam 24/7? Does he have no other civilian identity that he transforms back to when he's not Black Adam?
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  12. #27
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    When he was introduced Post-Crisis in Power of Shazam, he had been reincarnated into his descendant Theo Adam. After he became Black Adam, he was rarely seen as Theo again. Years later, in JSA, it was mentioned Adam had had a tumor removed from his brain; it was implied (or maybe stated? i don't remember.) that that tumor was the last vestige of Theo Adam. He just stayed Black Adam after that, even when unpowered.

  13. #28
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWarriorWolf View Post
    Not gonna adress everything piece by piece since you commented that it’s not going to sway you one way or another.

    As for what his ONUS should be, it should be a boy who faced suffering and rose above it to become something great. I’ll admit, it’s something recent versions haven’t gotten, but that’s the fault of the writer, not the character. All the versions I brought up (save Curse) play to that angle.

    Most of your comments are that DC doesn’t take him seriously. And you’re right. They don’t take him seriously, but I don’t see that as a flaw in Shazam, I see it as a flaw in DC writing.

    Why does he keep getting killed? Because they want cheap shock value, and killing kids gets shock value.

    Why does he keep getting resigned to comic relief? Because DC doesn’t believe kids can be serious without being brooding jerks.

    IMO, Billy doesn’t need to be changed. He needs to be written with a sense of dignity, and DC is refusing to do that.

    Turning him into Superman isn’t going to help, as DC doesn’t want a second Superman. They have been miswriting the character, and all turning him older will do is have another miswritten adult.

    Tl;dr Captain Marvel needs a better writer, not a transformation into Superman. That said, you and I are clearly not going to agree on this.
    HEY! I never said "turn him into superman"... I'm confused where you're getting that. . .
    What is it in my post that makes u think I'd disagree with ANYTHING you said?

    Aside from that. You haven't said anything that I disagree with... AT ALL?

    But what I will say is... If the Onus is:
    a boy who faced suffering and rose above it to become something great.
    Then The power of SHAZAM! NEEDS to be something great, and since he isn't written with dignity and respect, but instead as a boy... and quite often a whipping boy... it isn't all that great.

    I love the shazam but you may be correct: "They have been miswriting the character, and all turning him older will do is have another miswritten adult." I could see that outcome too.

    Here's what I don't understand about your post though... NO THAT I DISAGREE, but don't understand... so help me out here.

    What happens in his life when he overcomes? Does he graduate High School? Does he Date? Does he ever get to go to college? Work a 9 to 5? Go on to work in congress?



    See in a narrative sense... Its just a weird Scenario where 2 generations of Teen titans have come along graduated and gone, and billy is younger than Jason Todd, and billy is younger than Tim Drake, and billy is younger than Jonathon Kent.

    ...and how often do we see a child Mary Marvel? "My goodness Mary... look how you've grown..."-Black Adam

    Look I don't know the answer because there are a lot of issues to unpack. Don't get it twisted though, I'm not suggesting he's all of a sudden an adult, but... I'd be okay with him being in his teens.IDK
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  14. #29
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    How long do people think that wish fulfilment angle works in universe with continuity and character that has a clear issue with how he is used. Pure and simple Captain Marvel as young child does not belong in the main DC universe, He belongs universe where you can freeze him in time and nobody would care and he gets to be center of everything. If he is in the main universe he has be age where writers can actually do stories with him and you can only do so many comic realistic style stories with 12 year old. But If he is going to be frozen in comic time in the main DC uni then 15 to 17 is age range you want him to be in so then yes teen hormones, drugs,a part time job and other real world issues can be part it but you still get the school,wish fulfillment and some of innocence of character. In funny way Spiderman has the same issue he keeps on getting age down in movies because "high school wise cracking spidey" is the form where he is at his best but the thing we have seen Spiderman grown up and yeah the character is still really good as an adult.

    I will put it this way which do people rather Franklin Richards or Spiderman? For me I pick Spiderman and DC has Spiderman but he is trap as 10 year old. Captain Marvel is great as origin story and you can start the story as that but yeah age him up after. Anyways The movie has him at 14 which right about the sweet spot imo as 14 year old he is older Damien Wanye which pass the "Justice League problem slightly "and aging him a year or two leaves him just on cusp of adulthood.

  15. #30
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    I think the original Capt. Marvel's persona is like ZHA-VAM, an amalgam of all the gods and heroes that empower him. If you take the persona of all those guys and mash them together you get Cap--with a bit of Billy also informing his psyche. He can hear all of them in his mind. Likewise, Billy is mainly Billy but he can also hear the other voices.

    Generally, I don't think SHAZAM should be so serious, but if they wanted to do a story with more psychological depth then they could focus on that--all those voices in his head and in Billy's and how they deal with that. It could even be funny, but on a mature level, as some of those guys (Solomon, Zeus, Hercules) were great womanizers.

    Even on a for-all-ages level, there was alway something subversive in the story of Billy Batson--a kid who gets to grow up whenever he wants and be in the world of adults. And that's okay, because the best children's stories are subversive. American parents want to sanitze everything their little angels read, but you can't keep those ankle-biters in bubble wrap forever. And maybe exposing kids to challenging ideas is analogous to letting them play in the dirt--it makes them healthy in mind and body--and prepares them for real life.

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