CYBORG volume 3?

[Killerbee911]

Read the last part of what I wrote again.

Currently, Martian Manhunter, Cyborg, Black Canary, Starfire, Raven and many, many more are best suited as part of team books. If DC wants them to work as solo characters, they need to find creators who are able to rebuild them to work as one, which is extremely difficult.

That doesn't mean DC should not try, but this is the biggest hurdle that these characters' solo titles have faced that none of them have been able to overcome. The point being that if you are going to give Cyborg or Martian Manhunter or any of these other characters a solo title again, you better think long and hard about how to rework their status quo so that they work as solo characters, otherwise you'll end up with yet another cancelled solo book.

I don't agree with what you are saying you can literally kill some books with editor choices

1. Someone green light,The storyline of Cyborg Rebirth to be "I am Man or Machine" which was the same exact storyline as Cyborg Nu52
2. Cyborg as far I can remember had no DC guest stars
3. Cyborg had a different artist almost every book and couple of them weren't very good
4. Cyborg had 2 or 3 different writers

Are they clear narrative "status quo" stuff has hurt Cyborg? Yes, The move to Justice League was a great move but Cyborg origin shouldn't have been attached to Justice League. That movie rip away one of the biggest keys of the character which was his titans past. So when it is time do his solo book they couldn't call on his key friendships or stories from his past. Attaching his origin to Justice League made him a "Raw rookie" instead of "Phenom rookie" basically Cyborg joining the Justice League he should have be "LeBron James as rookie" meaning Justice League would want him on the team because they see he is competent hero like them and fans would have seen it like Cyborg is deserving of his chance to shine as big time hero. And that is just of couple of examples but still Cyborg with a clean slate could have worked but Cyborg had editorial issues that would out right kill any book .

Then people like yourself come along feed oh this character doesn't work narrative when biggest things against character success are the people in charge. Even in the movies stupid decision making has hurt Cyborg why in the world after the disaster that is Green lantern would you think they wouldn't make another character full suit green screen, They use that instead of a practical suit and you use cgi to enhance thing on the suit. A Cyborg movie is near impossible to make a profit because the cgi would push the budget up to like 200 million or more. You are right about finding creators who need to understand them but some books are sabotage unknowingly or knowingly by editorial choices. When you move a character into the Justice League you give the same support you give Batman,Superman, Wonder Woman and I would bet money that you put same creative teams that you those books on Cyborg the character will have success. DC had new age of heroes intivative which had amazing creative teams but look how fast they pulled the big guns from those projects to put them on Batman or Superman. Sometimes it is yeah they can't create good stories and villains but put a no name writer, rotating cast of mediocre artist and strip away all of character history and you expect that character to be successful? How is that the characters fault?

This is one of the better cyborg moments recently. Why?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don't agree with what you are saying you can literally kill some books with editor choices

1. Someone green light,The storyline of Cyborg Rebirth to be "I am Man or Machine" which was the same exact storyline as Cyborg Nu52
2. Cyborg as far I can remember had no DC guest stars
3. Cyborg had a different artist almost every book and couple of them weren't very good
4. Cyborg had 2 or 3 different writers

Are they clear narrative "status quo" stuff has hurt Cyborg? Yes, The move to Justice League was a great move but Cyborg origin shouldn't have been attached to Justice League. That movie rip away one of the biggest keys of the character which was his titans past. So when it is time do his solo book they couldn't call on his key friendships or stories from his past. Attaching his origin to Justice League made him a "Raw rookie" instead of "Phenom rookie" basically Cyborg joining the Justice League he should have be "LeBron James as rookie" meaning Justice League would want him on the team because they see he is competent hero like them and fans would have seen it like Cyborg is deserving of his chance to shine as big time hero. And that is just of couple of examples but still Cyborg with a clean slate could have worked but Cyborg had editorial issues that would out right kill any book .

Then people like yourself come along feed oh this character doesn't work narrative when biggest things against character success are the people in charge. Even in the movies stupid decision making has hurt Cyborg why in the world after the disaster that is Green lantern would you think they wouldn't make another character full suit green screen, They use that instead of a practical suit and you use cgi to enhance thing on the suit. A Cyborg movie is near impossible to make a profit because the cgi would push the budget up to like 200 million or more. You are right about finding creators who need to understand them but some books are sabotage unknowingly or knowingly by editorial choices. When you move a character into the Justice League you give the same support you give Batman,Superman, Wonder Woman and I would bet money that you put same creative teams that you those books on Cyborg the character will have success. DC had new age of heroes intivative which had amazing creative teams but look how fast they pulled the big guns from those projects to put them on Batman or Superman. Sometimes it is yeah they can't create good stories and villains but put a no name writer, rotating cast of mediocre artist and strip away all of character history and you expect that character to be successful? How is that the characters fault?

This is one of the better cyborg moments recently. Why?

I completely agree that stripping Cyborg of his past, then expecting him to work as a solo character without any of the backstory or relationships that defined him was a catastrophic decision if you want the character to have a fighting chance of succeeding as a solo star. Wally West similarly struggled in his early period as a solo star, but luckily he had his Titans backstory to keep him afloat long enough for Waid to finally make him work.

I would also agree that a Cyborg solo would have a much better chance with a big name creative team, but since that's true for virtually any character (except for the New Age of Heroes ), that wouldn't really prove that Cyborg is a viable solo character.

I will reiterate that Cyborg (or Martian Manhunter or Black Canary or plenty of others) could certainly work as solo characters, but they don't because that's not what any of them are built to be right now. Until that creative hurdle is solved, they are doomed to cancellation again.

[Killerbee911]

I would also agree that a Cyborg solo would have a much better chance with a big name creative team, but since that's true for virtually any character (except for the New Age of Heroes ), that wouldn't really prove that Cyborg is a viable solo character.

It is not matter of proving a character is viable attracting the large possible base. Starting a book with 2 million readers is better than 1 million readers. Obviously books eventually lose their new book crowd but the bigger the start the more of base you can keep more like a book is to survive. Also you can build character popularity with great creative team before trying to sell a book on it merits alone. Cyborg initial numbers tells all you need to know if the book has viability as solo project how the book degrades to cancellation tells you the quality of the project they are putting out. These are the Rebirth starting numbers for a couple books

Cyborg 1 61,908
Aquaman 1 84,745
Green Arrow 1 76,816
Batwoman 1 60,334
Wildstorm 1 54,442
Hellblazer 1 65,707


The point is Cyborg starting numbers says it is solo book, How Cyborg books numbers degrade shows that they are doing something wrong

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It is not matter of proving a character is viable attracting the large possible base. Starting a book with 2 million readers is better than 1 million readers. Obviously books eventually lose their new book crowd but the bigger the start the more of base you can keep more like a book is to survive. Also you can build character popularity with great creative team before trying to sell a book on it merits alone. Cyborg initial numbers tells all you need to know if the book has viability as solo project how the book degrades to cancellation tells you the quality of the project they are putting out. These are the Rebirth starting numbers for a couple books

Cyborg 1 61,908
Aquaman 1 84,745
Green Arrow 1 76,816
Batwoman 1 60,334
Wildstorm 1 54,442
Hellblazer 1 65,707


The point is Cyborg starting numbers says it is solo book, How Cyborg books numbers degrade shows that they are doing something wrong

Yes, what they are doing wrong is failing to rebuild the character from a great team character into one capable of sustaining a solo book. Until a creator comes around that can crack that particular nut, there's not much chance that another relaunch will succeed.

Again, doesn't mean that DC shouldn't try, but they need to stop trying the same approach and expect to get different results.

[leo619]

Um have you guys see what happened with JLO, DC literally had the recipe for success with Cyborg with Sejic and literally blew it in their face. Some of the posters here are right. It doesn't have to due with his titans background, it has to do with DC actually giving a crap and giving a high quality book like a JLA member is supposed to have. Instead, like Static and many of their other minority heroes, they drop the ball doing some kind of stupid crap because they can't take their minority characters serious enough.


So should DC do a Cyborg 3? They Need to, but they need to actually give a crap about doing it to which means.

1) You treat him like the premier hero he deserves to be. Not get shattered and crushed every 2 issues just to show how tough the villain is.


2) You give him the proper power level. He has a mother box for christ sake, his power should be through the roof yet they treat him like he's street level.


3) Make him an important hero within the DC Universe. His guest stars in other books mostly just have him getting jobbed out. How are we supposed to expect to take him serious as a top tier JLA member when his only role is to fall down and play dead?


Hell, according to some rumors, earlier script writing had Cyborg actually dying in the Justice League movie, that's how bad they view the character. So if they can't treat the character with respect, they can't expect us to.

[daBronzeBomma]

So, I thought this thread would be worth revisiting because I have some new ideas for CYBORG Volume 3.


1. Make CYBORG Volume 3 a maxi-series.

Maxi-series (7 to 12 issues) are much safer than open-ended ongoing series (usually get to at least 13 issues), and allow for much more storytelling than miniseries (2 to 6 issues). The threat of premature cancellation is much lower.

They work for characters who don't have a recent established successful history. Lois Lane is getting her own solo maxi-series next month.

Twelve pre-planned issues of a complete Cyborg story, with a well-constructed beginning, middle, and (most importantly) proper ending would be ideal for Vic Stone, esp if it could be collected into a trade paperback later.


2. Pull ideas from the best bits of Cyborg's non-comic media appearances over the decades for CYBORG Volume 3.

From

1980s SUPER FRIENDS cartoon to

2000s SMALLVILLE tv show and

2000s TEEN TITANS cartoon and

2010s JUSTICE LEAGUE movie and

2010s TEEN TITANS GO! cartoon and

2010s JUSTICE LEAGUE ACTION cartoon

and

2010s DOOM PATROL tv show,

there's a lot to different iterations from which to choose the good stuff.

Each of his appearances outside of comics (which is more extensive that you might think) has some positive aspect that can be used going forward within the comics.


3. Lose any link, no matter how unintentional, to Cyborg from the horrific imagery of the IRL violently castrated black man.

Yes, you need to show and tell (within the bounds of the CCA) that Vic's organic junk is perfectly intact and functional.

And if you claim nobody was thinking about that stuff, I'll immediately call b.s. Maybe some white fans weren't, but I know for a fact that many nerds of color (of which I am one) are very aware of it.


4. Put the "Am I Man Or Machine" question to bed once and for all.

Vic is a man.

A man with machine abilities.

Vic is not, and never has been nor will ever be, a machine. This should never have even been a primary question for his character.

Cyborg is not like STAR TREK: TNG's Lt. Commander Data, for whom that question actually is legitimately central to that character's existence.


5. Find a creator with clout who genuinely loves Cyborg.

He or she doesn't necessarily have be close to Bendis' level of power within the field. Also doesn't necessarily have to be black, either.

But it also wouldn't hurt if either or both of those conditions were true for CYBORG Volume 3. I don't know if there currently is anyone obvious who would fit the bill as a writer and/or artist.


Well, that's it for now. 2020 is Vic's 40th anniversary. There's still time to put something like this together for it.

[iron chimp]

I recently read army of two by Peter Milligan and it was so stupidly hardboiled it was hilarious. Some over the top trashy nonsense - the UN's ultimate peacekeeper / one man A-Team or Kaiju fighter. They are always after an art book to really showcase some of the great artists they have. Make it like James Stokoe on Godzilla - huge panels / light on words and just go balls out.

[Flash Gordon]

Anybody read HOTWIRE by Warren Ellis and Steve Pugh?

[Ascended]

So, is Victor Stone doomed, as far as solo ongoing titles go?

Or will he get a 3rd chance?

I hope so! Vic could be one of the best things at DC if someone with the right vision capitalized on his potential.

And what could a 3rd series of a CYBORG comic book learn from the 1st and 2nd series, in terms of what worked and doesn't work?

No more "man v machine" crap. Just like everyone here is saying. When people can't go an hour without looking at their phone, this particular conflict looks really, really pathetic.

Stop writing Vic like his tech is the best 1980 had to offer. The most advanced theoretical tech we're dreaming up today should be well beneath his ability.

Who would you want as the creative team? What newer themes could be explored?

Morrison or Ewing or Hickman, anyone who can handle high-concept science fiction as well as heart and emotion.

I think there's three major themes that could easily be explored with Vic.

1) Man (happily) fused with Machine. If Vic is the next step in human development (from wearable tech and pace makers to Cyborg) then he's not struggling with his two halves, he's struggling to lead mankind into a technologically responsible and bright future. Far more interesting to see Cyborg usher in the next big step in advancement than see him struggling with whether he has a soul (for the billionth time). You ever argue with your kid about spending too much time on the screens? Imagine being Vic, being responsible for teaching humanity to not lose track of their humanity while also being a walking iPod who's plugged in 24/7. That's a much more fun conflict than "woe is me, I'm the most technologically advanced being on earth but I lost half my face."

2) Fourth World demigod. There are a couple beings out there who are children of New Gods and mortals (like Grayven). But Vic is something else entirely and that opens up the notion of digital godhood. Vic's not a New God but he's the next best thing to one; easily on par with the most powerful beings in the universe (like Superman). Vic could be the bridge between the Fourth World and earth. Kirby did us all the favor of dropping more incredible ideas into the Fourth World than most writers dream up in their whole careers, and Vic opens an avenue in all that which has never been explored before.

3) Exploration. Vic has access to Boom Tubes and space flight. There is literally no place he cannot go. The multiverse, higher/lower dimensional realms, hypertime......all of it is open to Vic. In the same way that Superman is a symbol and beacon of hope around the universe, Vic could be the same for multiple realities.

When, if ever, do you think we might see another CYBORG ongoing? Or would a series of planned miniseries be better for him?

Well, I'm pretty high off the first reading of Naomi right now so my perception is colored, but I'd say a planned set of high-end, well-done mini's might be what the character needs. Give readers a chance to get comfortable with a "new" Vic, let the speculator market drive up some hype (if we're lucky), give the creators time to really get the story right. So right now I say do two or three mini's of 6 issues, and once that's wrapped, launch a new solo.

And keep the man in the League, and make him important for once! Put his history with the Titans back, but don't let that old role define or limit him. Vic *was* a Titan. Now he's League. Leave him there and let him continue to grow and evolve as a character and IP.

There's also a list of things I think every hero needs if they're going to hit the A-list, and Vic would have to get some of those boxes checked, but all that is far too specific for right now.

[Killerbee911]

I think there's three major themes that could easily be explored with Vic.

1) Man (happily) fused with Machine. If Vic is the next step in human development (from wearable tech and pace makers to Cyborg) then he's not struggling with his two halves, he's struggling to lead mankind into a technologically responsible and bright future. Far more interesting to see Cyborg usher in the next big step in advancement than see him struggling with whether he has a soul (for the billionth time). You ever argue with your kid about spending too much time on the screens? Imagine being Vic, being responsible for teaching humanity to not lose track of their humanity while also being a walking iPod who's plugged in 24/7. That's a much more fun conflict than "woe is me, I'm the most technologically advanced being on earth but I lost half my face."

2) Fourth World demigod. There are a couple beings out there who are children of New Gods and mortals (like Grayven). But Vic is something else entirely and that opens up the notion of digital godhood. Vic's not a New God but he's the next best thing to one; easily on par with the most powerful beings in the universe (like Superman). Vic could be the bridge between the Fourth World and earth. Kirby did us all the favor of dropping more incredible ideas into the Fourth World than most writers dream up in their whole careers, and Vic opens an avenue in all that which has never been explored before.

3) Exploration. Vic has access to Boom Tubes and space flight. There is literally no place he cannot go. The multiverse, higher/lower dimensional realms, hypertime......all of it is open to Vic. In the same way that Superman is a symbol and beacon of hope around the universe, Vic could be the same for multiple realities.


.

I like these a lot.

The one thing I will say they always go for the simple version of the "I am human argument". Where other questions/stuff are just interesting imo

1.Because of Cyborg body he is going to outlive everyone he loves and that is bigger tragedy than the I am human thing.

2.How much responsibility do you have as the first step in the next human evolution and what happens when you are so far ahead everything that you start to lose value of human life.

Cyborg is ripe for a couple of good time travel stories, and Cyborg is basically "Skynet" or better yet Brainiac. If they need to give Cyborg a tragedy what happens if he finds out that he might be reason for the destruction of the human race. You can write stories upon stories with him being the father of next step humanity or thing that destroy humans forever.

[daBronzeBomma]

I agree with the notion that Cyborg needs large portions of his pre-New52 history restored. He absolutely should be in the Justice League, but he is the call-up, the one who got promoted.

Vic can't be a founding member of the Justice League when literally all of his history and relationships are from the Titans, especially his best friendship with Beast Boy.
So soft-retcon that, if at all possible.

Let's talk supporting cast, rogues gallery, and settings.

Is Jinx an actual DC character in the comics with any interaction to Cyborg? Or was that a complete invention by the TEEN TITANS GO! cartoon?

Until some worthy new ones are created for him, are there ant DC supervillains in limbo, not being used because they are not an active part of any hero or Teams rogues gallery?

I'd love to see both Metallo and Brainiac guest star in Volume 3, similar to ACTION COMICS Black Ring storyline where Luthor dealt with multiple DCU supervillains.

[king81992]

I agree with the notion that Cyborg needs large portions of his pre-New52 history restored. He absolutely should be in the Justice League, but he is the call-up, the one who got promoted.

Vic can't be a founding member of the Justice League when literally all of his history and relationships are from the Titans, especially his best friendship with Beast Boy.
So soft-retcon that, if at all possible.

Let's talk supporting cast, rogues gallery, and settings.

Is Jinx an actual DC character in the comics with any interaction to Cyborg? Or was that a complete invention by the TEEN TITANS GO! cartoon?

Until some worthy new ones are created for him, are there ant DC supervillains in limbo, not being used because they are not an active part of any hero or Teams rogues gallery?

I'd love to see both Metallo and Brainiac guest star in Volume 3, similar to ACTION COMICS Black Ring storyline where Luthor dealt with multiple DCU supervillains.

Jinx fought the NTT along with the rest of the Fearsome 5 in comics.

[Ascended]

I like these a lot.

Many thanks.

The one thing I will say they always go for the simple version of the "I am human argument". Where other questions/stuff are just interesting imo

1.Because of Cyborg body he is going to outlive everyone he loves and that is bigger tragedy than the I am human thing.

2.How much responsibility do you have as the first step in the next human evolution and what happens when you are so far ahead everything that you start to lose value of human life.

I think your number 2....that's interesting, but what if you change it to "what happens when you're so far ahead of everything that you start to lose the definition of human life?"

Vic's not just biological, and he's not just half of one and half the other, he's a full-fledged fusion of technology and biology. How does *he* define humanity and how does that differ from the standard view, and what happens when those two ideals clash?

Man, I wish DC recognized what they've got in Vic. In today's world, to let a character like him languish is damn near criminal.

[Vampire Savior]

Is Jinx an actual DC character in the comics with any interaction to Cyborg? Or was that a complete invention by the TEEN TITANS GO! cartoon?

I'm pretty sure that's something only from the cartoon. I don't know if it ever made its way into any comics based on the cartoon, but the DC Comics Jinx seems to be a near entirely different character (and less interesting) from what I've seen. And while I'm not an expert, I think she's more romantically involved with Wally West.

I'm not quite sure why writers like to act like Cyborg's original girlfriend, Sarah Simms, doesn't exist anymore.

Until some worthy new ones are created for him, are there ant DC supervillains in limbo, not being used because they are not an active part of any hero or Teams rogues gallery?

I'd love to see both Metallo and Brainiac guest star in Volume 3, similar to ACTION COMICS Black Ring storyline where Luthor dealt with multiple DCU supervillains.

For Cyborg to have any true longevity as his own independent hero--which is something I don't think he will ever achieve, and certainly not in the near future--he will have to acquire his own opponents instead of aping from other heroes. Taking other heroes' villains while having no notables of their own is a clear sign that a character has no real foundation of their own.

I've never found Cyborg an interesting character. I know this sounds dismissive of me, but what I've found most interesting about him are DC's hilarious attempts at establishing him as a major hero because he's black and DC doesn't have much of anyone else to sufficiently fit that spot. When you take away the dysfunction of comics' Direct Market, the wisest thing DC could have done (in a functional marketplace) was build a new character from the ground up that is specifically designed to fill that role instead of trying to shoehorn Cyborg into it. I think that's trying to fit a square peg in a circle hole.

You never want to say never, but I believe there is intrinsically too much wrong with Cyborg, and it isn't worth the trouble of trying to address all of his...issues. You would have to change so much about the character's fundamentals that you may as well not bother. Furthermore, DC seems hell bent on keeping those fundamentals - such as half a face, a metal body, whether this black male is even human, the dubious status of his genitalia and so on. That last factor sounds funny and ridiculous, but that is actually a real issue. One of the things that makes Cyborg such a hilarious character to me is that factor and how DC has been oblivious to, and how they don't seem sure of how to approach the problem.

[Johnny]

For Cyborg to have any true longevity as his own independent hero, which is something I don't think he will ever achieve, and certainly not in the near future, he will have to acquire his own opponents instead of aping from other heroes. Taking other heroes' villains is a clear sign that a character has no real foundation of their own.

Well, Snyder is currently doing the same thing with John Stewart in Justice League and it seems to be doing just fine. If John can fight against Sinestro and be partnered with Barry Allen, characters who are well-known to be associated with another Green Lantern and fans don't have a problem with it, why can't Vic fight against villains who aren't exclusively created for him. The character's foundation will always be the Titans, and whether he's a standalone character or a JL member, there's no need to ignore his roots, especially if they can use the Titans mythos to have him face against prominent DCU villains like Deathstroke.