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  1. #46
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Well, Snyder is currently doing the same thing with John Stewart in Justice League and it seems to be doing just fine. If John can fight against Sinestro and be partnered with Barry Allen, characters who are well-known to be associated with another Green Lantern and fans don't have a problem with it, why can't Vic fight against villains who aren't exclusively created for him.
    I have seen fans who have a problem with that. To prove it, I can mention some by "name". Let's get forum member Han9000 in here and see what they would have to say about that. While we're at it, let's also see what some of those fans have to say about John Stewart being in the Justice League instead of Hal Jordan. John Stewart doesn't have his own foundation, and because of that, he will always have to deal with "Han9000s" and people of like mind. There are even many people like that working behind the scenes. So whether it's really working for John Stewart is debatable. I would argue that, in the long run, it isn't.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I have seen fans who have a problem with that. To prove it, I can mention some by "name". Let's get forum member Han9000 in here and see what they would have to say about that. While we're at it, let's also see what some of those fans have to say about John Stewart being in the Justice League instead of Hal Jordan. John Stewart doesn't have his own foundation, and because of that, he will always have to deal with "Han9000s" and people of like mind. There are even many people like that working behind the scenes. So whether it's really working for John Stewart is debatable. I would argue that, in the long run, it isn't.
    The point was that any character that does or doesn't have their own foundation could benefit from characters that aren't typically associated with them and work well within the stories the writer is trying to tell. If you can have Talia al Ghul in a Superman-centered story, why can't you have let's say Gorilla Grodd in a Cyborg-centered story.

  3. #48
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that sort of thing is against some law or anything, and I am aware that the poster I was initially responding to wasn't saying that Cyborg should ONLY use other characters' villains. However, I don't believe that should be a priority with Cyborg if his handlers are trying to build him into his own independent and successful character. Personally, if it was me, I would avoid that entirely, because I would rather spend that effort and those resources establishing things made specifically for Cyborg.

    It's likely that any gain from borrowing another character's mythos would be short lived, while working harder to build Cyborg's own world would have longer term benefits if done well.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    The point was that any character that does or doesn't have their own foundation could benefit from characters that aren't typically associated with them and work well within the stories the writer is trying to tell. If you can have Talia al Ghul in a Superman-centered story, why can't you have let's say Gorilla Grodd in a Cyborg-centered story.
    Part of the reason you don't see Grodd in a Cyborg story is because editors don't want him there. One thing I have observed in reading black lead books (POC in general) at the big two is villains tend to NOT bother them.
    So you end up being forced to create new villains. If that POC is not linked to a franchise like Spider-Man more than Titans.

    Look at Luke Cage's comic run-aside from Doom-he had all original villains created.
    Steel had all new villains in his run.
    Black Lightning too.
    Black Panther faced Doom once and otherwise all new folks.
    Duke Thomas-why has he not faced Joker yet? He has a reason to. But we will never see that story.

    So for Cyborg to get to that next level-he needs his own EVERYTHING.

  5. #50
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    I just want a female writer onboard, the series to be very animesque, and focus on something other than "well am I sauce (man) or am I salt (machine)?"

    Also, reintroduce Grid as a machine that's part man (yes, he'll have emotion.)

  6. #51

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    I didn't read Semper's run yet but I thought Walker had the right direction in his run so I'd just continue to build on that. One thing I'd work on his dynamic with the Justice League because I always saw it as too stiff/distant.

    New villains are a must but does Cyborg have any existing villains outside of Grid?

  7. #52
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    Kilg%re first appeared in an issue of The Flash from 1986.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    When it comes to villains, a hero really does need a strong and developed rogues gallery created originally for that hero. But it takes a lot of time to get to that point and the market isn't patient enough to let that sort of thing happen anymore.

    So I support the idea of introducing new foes (and keep working on the ones Vic has, like Grid and the cyborg alien whatever they were from the DCYOU series), and then borrowing a few to drum up interest. A cover with Vic fighting a known and established villain will get a little more attention than the same cover using a unknown villain.

    And there's several bad guys out there that Vic could borrow occasionally, and a few he might even be able to steal completely. Kilg%ore (or however you spell that stupid name) makes more sense as a Cyborg villain than a Flash one, though I do appreciate how Flash's rogues gallery is expanded by that particular foe. The Fearsome Five would work really well as foes for Vic; that'd not only show how much Vic has grown (taking on a group of villains it used to take the whole NTT to stop) and you could use Jinx as his "star-crossed" Catwoman-esque love interest. Then there's.....Symian and Mokari (spelling?), the head scientists of Darkseid's Evil Factory. Those guys tie into Vic's New Gods connections and no one ever uses them, so Vic might as well take them. I wouldn't be against Vic going up against the Cyborg Superman either; they have a lot in common (losing their humanity in accidents, etc) and a fight against Hank Henshaw shows that Vic really is on Superman's power level.

    Cyborg needs villains of his own, but it wont hurt to borrow a few while those new creations get their feet under them. I mean, if you can't even fight someone else's rogue once in a while, what's the point of a shared universe?
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  9. #54
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    When it comes to villains, a hero really does need a strong and developed rogues gallery created originally for that hero. But it takes a lot of time to get to that point and the market isn't patient enough to let that sort of thing happen anymore.

    So I support the idea of introducing new foes (and keep working on the ones Vic has, like Grid and the cyborg alien whatever they were from the DCYOU series), and then borrowing a few to drum up interest. A cover with Vic fighting a known and established villain will get a little more attention than the same cover using a unknown villain.

    And there's several bad guys out there that Vic could borrow occasionally, and a few he might even be able to steal completely. Kilg%ore (or however you spell that stupid name) makes more sense as a Cyborg villain than a Flash one, though I do appreciate how Flash's rogues gallery is expanded by that particular foe. The Fearsome Five would work really well as foes for Vic; that'd not only show how much Vic has grown (taking on a group of villains it used to take the whole NTT to stop) and you could use Jinx as his "star-crossed" Catwoman-esque love interest. Then there's.....Symian and Mokari (spelling?), the head scientists of Darkseid's Evil Factory. Those guys tie into Vic's New Gods connections and no one ever uses them, so Vic might as well take them. I wouldn't be against Vic going up against the Cyborg Superman either; they have a lot in common (losing their humanity in accidents, etc) and a fight against Hank Henshaw shows that Vic really is on Superman's power level.

    Cyborg needs villains of his own, but it wont hurt to borrow a few while those new creations get their feet under them. I mean, if you can't even fight someone else's rogue once in a while, what's the point of a shared universe?
    Jinx shouldn't be Cyborg's love interest, instead let it be a Barbara Wilson esque character. (But of course more character development since she's from like one of the worst DC movies ever)

    Also not all of Cyborg's antagonists should be tech related. Sure they can be real smart, but not all of them need to have a computer motif. We can use Cheetah.

    The aliens were Technosapiens FYI
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  10. #55
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    At the end of John Semper jr.'s run I was hoping that Vic would become a soul singer since the blind jazz singer Blue helped him realise that he indeed had a soul after Silas recorded that cruel querry on tape speculating that Cyborg might be dead, a walking zombie.

    Continuing that aspect of Semper jr's run into volume 3 making Vic deep and soulful through his voice, his music, the lyrics that he writes. Give him someway to touch other people souls.
    Last edited by Wakeneuron; 06-09-2019 at 03:55 PM.

  11. #56
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    When it comes to villains, a hero really does need a strong and developed rogues gallery created originally for that hero. But it takes a lot of time to get to that point and the market isn't patient enough to let that sort of thing happen anymore.
    The market needs to be reconditioned, then, if creators can't simply create without having to rely on silly gimmicks and stipulations. Either that, or a new marketplace needs to be found.

    Cyborg needs villains of his own, but it wont hurt to borrow a few while those new creations get their feet under them. I mean, if you can't even fight someone else's rogue once in a while, what's the point of a shared universe?
    Fighting other heroes' rogues should be a novelty, not a necessity. Cyborg will never get off the ground if he has to rely on other characters' mythologies because his is too empty or uninteresting. And the DC shared universe is ONLY interesting because characters have their own interesting independent mythologies unto themselves, and when those are developed, it's fun to see how they interact with each other.

    I think a lot of people in the industry, for numerous reasons, just don't want to do the real down and dirty work of creating fascinating mythologies and having the faith in them to stick with them even through tough times, and the fans, instead of demanding better, or searching for better, just kind of accept this situation, and are now open and receptive to short cuts and lazy methods...like stealing from other mythologies instead of building new and interesting ones. A culture has developed here, and it's built upon an undesirable foundation.

    And most just shrug instead of having the balls enough to say, "Hey. This is bad. This isn't good enough. That's not how you do things. That's not how we built the fascinating and successful characters like Batman we have today. We need a higher standard here."

  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    The market needs to be reconditioned, then, if creators can't simply create without having to rely on silly gimmicks and stipulations. Either that, or a new marketplace needs to be found.
    I agree with you on both points.

    But that's not the market we have, and the industry has yet to figure out a viable way to break new ground. You gotta work with the realities in front of you right?

    Fighting other heroes' rogues should be a novelty, not a necessity. Cyborg will never get off the ground if he has to rely on other characters' mythologies because his is too empty or uninteresting.
    It should be. But that's not the market we live in. Like I said, he does need original threats and the ones he has (like Grid) need to be developed further. But if you take one arc out of three and borrow someone else's rogue? It'll help keep the book alive long enough for those new foes to get the development so they *can* stand on their own as a rogues gallery. I mean, a borrowed villain alone isn't going to extend the life-span of the title by all that much but every little bit helps.

    I think a lot of people in the industry, for numerous reasons, just don't want to do the real down and dirty work of creating fascinating mythologies and having the faith in them to stick with them even through tough times
    I think most creators now save their good ideas for creator-owned titles. Why give Marvel or DC a great idea you'll never profit from when you can publish that idea with Image or one of the other indies and get more money out of any adaptations or licensing agreements that come along?

    Actually, I think this is why we see so many legacies and new Bat-sidekicks and whatnot. Creators might not want to put their best ideas into the Big 2, since they can't profit from that, but you can't do a new Robin or Super-related character at Dark Horse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon16 View Post
    Jinx shouldn't be Cyborg's love interest, instead let it be a Barbara Wilson esque character. (But of course more character development since she's from like one of the worst DC movies ever)
    I was thinking more like classic Catwoman; not really a love interest, but a villain he has some serious sexual tension with, yknow?

    Also not all of Cyborg's antagonists should be tech related. Sure they can be real smart, but not all of them need to have a computer motif. We can use Cheetah.
    Oh absolutely! I actually kinda hate that all of Vic's villains were tech-based in his two series. I know I suggested a bunch of techies for rogues, but Vic definitely needs a wider spread than that. Which is why I support his taking the Fearsome Five. Yeah, there's Gizmo (who would make for a great arch-nemesis on his own) but you've also got a physical brute, a telepath, a wizard and an elementalist, all of whom offer interesting challenges that Vic would have to confront in different ways.

    Way I see it, if you want a really good challenge for Vic, you have him fight the whole team at once. That's a lot of abilities and powers all aimed at him. That's a good fight. But if you need one of those small action scenes, just to get a little violence into the issue, then you can have Vic take on any one of them individually. Vic fighting just Mammoth (or Psimon or whoever) shouldn't much worse than Superman fighting Toyman. I mean, not to knock those villains but Vic has a Mother Box for a heart. He should be well beyond the Five's individual abilities at this point.

    The aliens were Technosapiens FYI
    Ah, right! Thank you! Yeah, I thought they were a weird concept but there was potential to work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakeneuron View Post
    At the end of John Semper jr.'s run I was hoping that Vic would become a soul singer since the blind jazz singer Blue helped him realise that he indeed had a soul after Silas recorded that cruel querry on tape speculating that Cyborg might be dead, a walking zombie.

    Continuing that aspect of Semper jr's run into volume 3 making Vic deep and soulful through his voice, his music, the lyrics that he writes. Give him someway to touch other people souls.
    I really like this idea. I think Vic definitely needs some hobbies and talents that have nothing to do with technology, and his athleticism is basically overlapped completely by his enhanced cybernetics. A blues singer would be awesome and really help round him out. Plus, I do love the blues!
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  13. #58
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakeneuron View Post
    At the end of John Semper jr.'s run I was hoping that Vic would become a soul singer since the blind jazz singer Blue helped him realise that he indeed had a soul after Silas recorded that cruel querry on tape speculating that Cyborg might be dead, a walking zombie.

    Continuing that aspect of Semper jr's run into volume 3 making Vic deep and soulful through his voice, his music, the lyrics that he writes. Give him someway to touch other people souls.
    Sorry, if I think of Cyborg singing, I just think of him screaming musically in the 2003 Titans series

    but if Cyborg did sing, I-I have to... "This song is called 'One Week.' It's been... one week since you looked at me..."
    "I'll never wear my Power Ring again! It's been a curse to me!"

  14. #59
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree with you on both points.

    But that's not the market we have, and the industry has yet to figure out a viable way to break new ground. You gotta work with the realities in front of you right?
    What I would propose in this situation is to not do an ongoing title, don't use any of these other characters' characters, and just do focused 6 issue mini-series every year that build on each other with the intent on building Cyborg's own mythology. Preferably with the same creative team, but it MUST be with the same editor, otherwise the new team would just start from scratch and you'd get nowhere.

    DC would, of course, have to commit to continuing the mini-series. These days they're so fickle over there that what you have going on one month is completely turned upside down the next. That type of thing isn't going to work for any character.

    EDIT:
    Actually, I would just can the mini series idea and put out full high-quality graphic novels. Screw this monthly stuff.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree with you on both points.

    But that's not the market we have, and the industry has yet to figure out a viable way to break new ground. You gotta work with the realities in front of you right?
    I personally think DC should do those online originals for Cy like Marvel did for Luke and Jessica although they didn't last that long either. Any character thats not a really big name is gonna struggle.
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