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  1. #16
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I mean Marvel does this all the time

    There are at least 30 characters that should never forgive Ironman after Civil War

    Cyclops, Namor, Nick Fury the list goes on
    Let's not forget how Bill Foster's death got swept under the rug.

    The only person who got their hands cleaned of that was Hank, because he had been replaced by the Skrull by that point.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Let's not forget how Bill Foster's death got swept under the rug.

    The only person who got their hands cleaned of that was Hank, because he had been replaced by the Skrull by that point.
    Hank made it worse by trapping Bill Foster's "soul" in some kind of techno-heaven. how presumptious was that?

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Hank made it worse by trapping Bill Foster's "soul" in some kind of techno-heaven. how presumptious was that?
    Still far better and more respectful then Clor .

  4. #19
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    The consequences of secret empire, especially for those working with the hydra regime should still be being felt imo, and I haven't really seen this

    Likewise cw1 and CW2 and some other bits and bats

    Consequences of events like secret empire barely seem touched upon

    Maybe in some parts, but I must have missed them

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Still far better and more respectful then Clor .
    are you sure? Pym had robotic duplicates of the other Avengers that went amok during spencer's run. they were programmed to give him compliments. Stark Reed and Skrull Pym just created Clor for the intimidation factor. the skrull sabotaged the programming leading to Clor also being a homicidal maniac. they weren't trying to replace their friend. they just thought that his presence would end the fight.

  6. #21
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    are you sure? Pym had robotic duplicates of the other Avengers that went amok during spencer's run. they were programmed to give him compliments. Stark Reed and Skrull Pym just created Clor for the intimidation factor. the skrull sabotaged the programming leading to Clor also being a homicidal maniac. they weren't trying to replace their friend. they just thought that his presence would end the fight.
    I wasn't a big fan of that annual.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Honestly I'd say the problem is Marvel publishing these "fallen hero" storylines that they know they're not gonna follow up. If you know you're gonna sweep it all under the rug then revert everything to back before a story was written, don't write the story in the first place

    It's the same problem with the whole death/resurrection cycle. The problem isn't that you brought someone back, it's that you killed them off as a cheap sales ploy in the first place, and you knew they'd be back.

  8. #23
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Let's not forget how Bill Foster's death got swept under the rug.

    The only person who got their hands cleaned of that was Hank, because he had been replaced by the Skrull by that point.
    Yeah, only his nephew really cared, and that got interpreted to make him into an anti-Avengers villain who got thrown in prison and left there to be forgotten until Civil War II's Choosing Sides anthology.

    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    The consequences of secret empire, especially for those working with the hydra regime should still be being felt imo, and I haven't really seen this

    Likewise cw1 and CW2 and some other bits and bats

    Consequences of events like secret empire barely seem touched upon

    Maybe in some parts, but I must have missed them
    Secret Empire's consequences are being somewhat addressed in Ta-Nehisi Coates's Captain America, largely because it dovetails well with the overall theme of "What does America mean and who or what does it represent and stand for anymore?" Beyond that, I think both Civil Wars are generally easier to push under the rug if you write them off as comparatively petty superhero drama writ large, whereas something like Secret Empire had a humongous impact not just on the superheroes, but on so many regular and not-so-regular Americans, that it kind of had to be addressed. Then again, Secret Empire was largely justified in-universe as the chickens coming home to roost for said "petty superhero drama" getting in the way of the real work of a superhero to protect humanity from threats and dangers, with the public being so demoralized and alienated by them that HYDRA actually looked like it was offering a better deal in comparison. That is still something that has to be addressed, and I'm glad Coates is willing to do so.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #24
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Let's not forget how Bill Foster's death got swept under the rug.

    The only person who got their hands cleaned of that was Hank, because he had been replaced by the Skrull by that point.
    very true

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Hank made it worse by trapping Bill Foster's "soul" in some kind of techno-heaven. how presumptious was that?
    I don't even remember that....probably for the best

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    are you sure? Pym had robotic duplicates of the other Avengers that went amok during spencer's run. they were programmed to give him compliments. Stark Reed and Skrull Pym just created Clor for the intimidation factor. the skrull sabotaged the programming leading to Clor also being a homicidal maniac. they weren't trying to replace their friend. they just thought that his presence would end the fight.
    Yeah but look how things ended up. You almost always judge things by their consequences/outcomes.

    Real world example of good intentions leading to terrible consequences: In the late 90’s we saw a push to increase home ownership, and we saw the creation of easy-to-access home loans that led the way to an overly loose banking environment where folks we’re able to bite off debt that they weren’t able to swallow. The banks then started to traded these risky debts, and well, we all know how this ended.
    The J-man

  10. #25
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    Yeah but look how things ended up. You almost always judge things by their consequences/outcomes.

    Real world example of good intentions leading to terrible consequences: In the late 90’s we saw a push to increase home ownership, and we saw the creation of easy-to-access home loans that led the way to an overly loose banking environment where folks we’re able to bite off debt that they weren’t able to swallow. The banks then started to traded these risky debts, and well, we all know how this ended.
    I think that speaks to a few Marvel storylines quite a bit.

    I don't think Marvel was expecting people would start really disliking Iron Man and Captain Marvel after the respective Civil Wars that had them as the "bad guys" even when they were written as making decisions or acting in a way that would very likely turn people against them.

  11. #26
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think that speaks to a few Marvel storylines quite a bit.

    I don't think Marvel was expecting people would start really disliking Iron Man and Captain Marvel after the respective Civil Wars that had them as the "bad guys" even when they were written as making decisions or acting in a way that would very likely turn people against them.
    And as much of a hornet's nest as it is, both "Vs. X-Men" storylines with the Avengers in 2012 and then the Inhumans in 2017. While the X-Men were intended to be seen as the ones in the wrong, a fair amount of people came away hating (or at least resenting) both the Avengers and the Inhumans because of how negative or unheroic actions on their part in the name of defeating their opposition were more-or-less swept under the rug and fans/readers were expected to be ok with them being subsequently portrayed in a more heroic light. Somehow, Marvel didn't see that coming, either.

    As for the Civil Wars, Iron Man's largely been forgiven by now, at least since we've had 10+ years to deal with and process what happened in the original Civil War and move on from there. Captain Marvel hasn't, largely because the wounds of Civil War II are still fresh, as it's been only two years since then, not to mention that the events there ended up propelling the events in Secret Empire, HYDRA-Cap tearing down an internally divided superhero community because to him, they were nothing but selfish powermongers who cared less about protecting ordinary people than they did about preserving and advancing their own position and status. Oh, and whereas so-called "nobodies" were the only major casualties of the original Civil War, Civil War II started off killing War Machine, nearly did the same to She-Hulk and Iron Man, and actually did kill off the Hulk (Bruce Banner), with Hulk's killer getting off scot-free and being viewed by the general public as a hero for it. All heroes with bigger names and caches with the comic-reading audience than the New Warriors and Bill Foster, sad as that calculus may be.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #27
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    It seems like Carol's actions was quite proved to be repulsive for Marvel 's POV against the comic readers when they showed that Carol's character was superior than Tony(in terms of CW2) from the last issue.......... During CW2 i think IM's actions were proved to be refurnished with reasonable good intentions when they showed that Tony's was a futurist but he learned from his past actions that he will never have second thoughts to be like .

    During CW whatever happened with Cap's decisions may be controversial that he may have taken different steps to contradict Registration Act but Tony's actions not only determined the casualties of CW but after what happened (i.e Secret Invasion and Dark Reign) was indirectly due to Tony's obsession for Registration Act

  13. #28
    Fantastic Member Flashback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    And as much of a hornet's nest as it is, both "Vs. X-Men" storylines with the Avengers in 2012 and then the Inhumans in 2017. While the X-Men were intended to be seen as the ones in the wrong, a fair amount of people came away hating (or at least resenting) both the Avengersand the Inhumans because of how negative or unheroic actions on their part in the name of defeating their opposition were more-or-less swept under the rug and fans/readers were expected to be ok with them being subsequently portrayed in a more heroic light. Somehow, Marvel didn't see that coming, either.

    As for the Civil Wars, Iron Man's largely been forgiven by now, at least since we've had 10+ years to deal with and process what happened in the original Civil War and move on from there. Captain Marvel hasn't, largely because the wounds of Civil War II are still fresh, as it's been only two years since then, not to mention that the events there ended up propelling the events in Secret Empire, HYDRA-Cap tearing down an internally divided superhero community because to him, they were nothing but selfish powermongers who cared less about protecting ordinary people than they did about preserving and advancing their own position and status. Oh, and whereas so-called "nobodies" were the only major casualties of the original Civil War, Civil War II started off killing War Machine, nearly did the same to She-Hulk and Iron Man, and actually did kill off the Hulk (Bruce Banner), with Hulk's killer getting off scot-free and being viewed by the general public as a hero for it. All heroes with bigger names and caches with the comic-reading audience than the New Warriors and Bill Foster, sad as that calculus may be.
    Whats a fair amount of people?

    Avengers for life...

    but seriously you pit one group against another, theirs bound to be fans upset.

    Can't wait to see who Marvel decides to pit against next in the new "Vs. X-men"
    Last edited by Flashback; 09-24-2018 at 09:27 PM.

  14. #29
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    As for the Civil Wars, Iron Man's largely been forgiven by now, at least since we've had 10+ years to deal with and process what happened in the original Civil War and move on from there. Captain Marvel hasn't, largely because the wounds of Civil War II are still fresh, as it's been only two years since then, not to mention that the events there ended up propelling the events in Secret Empire, HYDRA-Cap tearing down an internally divided superhero community because to him, they were nothing but selfish powermongers who cared less about protecting ordinary people than they did about preserving and advancing their own position and status. Oh, and whereas so-called "nobodies" were the only major casualties of the original Civil War, Civil War II started off killing War Machine, nearly did the same to She-Hulk and Iron Man, and actually did kill off the Hulk (Bruce Banner), with Hulk's killer getting off scot-free and being viewed by the general public as a hero for it. All heroes with bigger names and caches with the comic-reading audience than the New Warriors and Bill Foster, sad as that calculus may be.
    All the CWII casualties have been fixed. Jennifer and Tony came out of their comas, Rhodey and Banner have been resurrected. As for CW1, Namorita and Night Thrasher were both revived by means of time travel (in Nova and Contest of Champions respectively) so Microbe is the only New Warrior who still ended up dying there. Foster hasn't been resurrected either.
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  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    very true



    I don't even remember that....probably for the best.
    Ant-Man and the Wasp mini series starring Hank Pym and Eric O'Grady. A.I.M stole Pym's techno heaven with Bill's "soul" trapped inside. truthfully, there didn't seem to be anything heavenly about it. bill was wearing his retro costume with the exposed abs and high collar. none of his loved ones were there. I have no idea what a day for him would have looked like. anyways, it sparked an argument between Pym (an atheist) and O'Grady (apparently raised Catholic). I wonder if either character has changed their position. Hank is now trapped in the soul gem. and Eric is a digital consciousness.

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