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  1. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Eh, sexy is in the eye of the beholder, and if the internet has taught us anything (especially in COVID isolation), humans will find anything sexy no matter how layered or covered. Even scantily clad nuns and librarians came from fantasies of regular nuns and librarians.

    We're weird like that, and I'm sure Ilia will agree.

    With that said, yep, Enterprise was definitely not great in that regard.
    I mean, if anything is sexy, then nothing is.

    I actually like Enterprise in many ways, but how they handled T'Pol comes off too "male gaze"

  2. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    The concept of a sexy Vulcan makes no sense anyway.
    It make sense to me.
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  3. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Isn't all "sexy" cheap in some way? That's literally the point of it.

    I specifically mention Vulcans because they're supposed to suppress their emotions, so trying to be sexy might contradict that.

    Nonetheless, I don't think Enterprise did a good job of it anyway.
    YMMV. Elegance can be sexy. And when properly portrayed, Vulcans are always elegant.

    T'Pol was not elegant.

  4. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    But why would a race suppressing their emotions care about being sexy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    YMMV. Elegance can be sexy. And when properly portrayed, Vulcans are always elegant.

    T'Pol was not elegant.
    I don't get that though. Sexy or anything to do with sex is by its nature primitive, which is the opposite of the idea of elegance

  5. #890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    But why would a race suppressing their emotions care about being sexy?



    I don't get that though. Sexy or anything to do with sex is by its nature primitive, which is the opposite of the idea of elegance
    You are thinking too much. Vulcans are logical people, so they only suppress illogical emotions. Recognizing a sexy person isn’t illogical.

  6. #891
    three-time juror The Gold Stream's Avatar
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    pon farr all the time

  7. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    You are thinking too much. Vulcans are logical people, so they only suppress illogical emotions. Recognizing a sexy person isn’t illogical.
    There's nothing logical about sexy

  8. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    There's nothing logical about sexy
    Factually incorrect. Propagation of the species is inherently logical.

    Being blinded or distracted by sexy would be illogical. Recognizing that one finds something sexy is not in any way illogical, nor is necessarily attempting to be such for a potential mate.

    But context matters. T'pol was a bad joke, and I legitimately feel bad for the actress, even if she wasn't great in the role anyway.
    Last edited by ZeroBG82; 06-17-2021 at 08:44 PM.

  9. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Factually incorrect. Propagation of the species is inherently logical.

    Being blinded or distracted by sexy would be illogical. Recognizing that one finds something sexy is not in any way illogical, nor is necessarily attempting to be such for a potential mate.

    But context matters. T'pol was a bad joke, and I legitimately feel bad for the actress, even if she wasn't great in the role anyway.
    Appearance has really nothing to do with propagation. Someone looking a certain way doesn't in any way indicate they'll be a good parent or even partner. No one's thinking about reproduction while having lascivious thoughts about someone's body or hair shape or whatever they find "sexy", which, by the way, is influenced by random and changing social factors

    I didn't totally hate T'Pol, I just don't like how she was sexualized just because she was a female alien

  10. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    There's nothing logical about sexy
    Nope, because Vulcans has to reproduce too.

  11. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    Nope, because Vulcans has to reproduce too.
    In the above post, I point out appearance has nothing to do with reproduction

  12. #897
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I mean, if anything is sexy, then nothing is.

    I actually like Enterprise in many ways, but how they handled T'Pol comes off too "male gaze"
    i agree about Enterprise and its handling of T'Pol, but Rule 34 has been a thing for quite some time (especially with film but moreso with the internet).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    In the above post, I point out appearance has nothing to do with reproduction
    If we're going with base instincts, then that's not necessarily correct, either. For example, the colorful plumage on various birds are for attracting mates. Same for elaborate courtship displays on thr animal kingdom -- and these displays are taught, practiced, or even augmented with various tools and items for added appearance. Any advantage to be chosen over a rival.

    For humans, a well-defined or "fit" body denotes discipline and strength, while other elements like make up and hair appeal to what's pleasing or not. Then again, an less defined body could denote to the attracted a different and more preferred lifestyle. An elegant person would exude refinement and practice, whereas a more casual person would emote a more relaxed, perhaps even more carefree personality. that's all okay because that's up to the attracted -- IDIC. Fashion (whether supermodel fashions or traditional cultural/ancestral garb) are made with the sake of attracting the eye towards beauty, attraction, same interests and finding a mate or finding the potential of what a good mate could look like. Elegance was highlighted as appealing and sexy in the 17th and 19th centuries -- contrary to much pop culture, elegant people did indeed propogate -- because of class and power, things to be desired.

    And even earlier than that around the globe, rulers and wealthy families would often choose mates for the sake of political power (the joining of houses , for example) but the courtship process and candidates would often be dressed up to heighten their appeal and thus be chosen by said-ruler over the competition -- that is, appearance to sexually attract a powerful leader was quite common to attain power and pass the bloodline -- appearance directly led to propogation at a political and social level.

    On a side, we should note that Vulcans aren't devoid of emotion, they merely suppress with immense discipline. But even in TOS we've seen them moved by beauty (whether it's a cosmic anomaly or Spock complimenting a woman), so they know beauty when they see it -- bit it's also very likely that they have their own definitions of beauty. After all, they have their own cultural aesthetics and their own art forms, too, and those require emotions.
    Last edited by Cyke; 06-18-2021 at 01:07 AM.

  13. #898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    i agree about Enterprise and its handling of T'Pol, but Rule 34 has been a thing for quite some time (especially with film but moreso with the internet).



    If we're going with base instincts, then that's not necessarily correct, either. For example, the colorful plumage on various birds are for attracting mates. Same for elaborate courtship displays on thr animal kingdom -- and these displays are taught, practiced, or even augmented with various tools and items for added appearance. Any advantage to be chosen over a rival.

    For humans, a well-defined or "fit" body denotes discipline and strength, while other elements like make up and hair appeal to what's pleasing or not. Then again, an less defined body could denote to the attracted a different and more preferred lifestyle. An elegant person would exude refinement and practice, whereas a more casual person would emote a more relaxed, perhaps even more carefree personality. that's all okay because that's up to the attracted -- IDIC. Fashion (whether supermodel fashions or traditional cultural/ancestral garb) are made with the sake of attracting the eye towards beauty, attraction, same interests and finding a mate or finding the potential of what a good mate could look like. Elegance was highlighted as appealing and sexy in the 17th and 19th centuries -- contrary to much pop culture, elegant people did indeed propogate -- because of class and power, things to be desired.

    And even earlier than that around the globe, rulers and wealthy families would often choose mates for the sake of political power (the joining of houses , for example) but the courtship process and candidates would often be dressed up to heighten their appeal and thus be chosen by said-ruler over the competition -- that is, appearance to sexually attract a powerful leader was quite common to attain power and pass the bloodline -- appearance directly led to propogation at a political and social level.

    On a side, we should note that Vulcans aren't devoid of emotion, they merely suppress with immense discipline. But even in TOS we've seen them moved by beauty (whether it's a cosmic anomaly or Spock complimenting a woman), so they know beauty when they see it -- bit it's also very likely that they have their own definitions of beauty. After all, they have their own cultural aesthetics and their own art forms, too, and those require emotions.
    Perhaps I shouldn't have said they have nothing to do with one another. But my point is a lot of those are socially constructed ideals, which can and do change, and are based on various random social factors. So while those can attract people, they don't at all guarantee someone would be a fit parent, or even if they'd reciprocate those feelings or desires in any way. And I think we've seen the massive social downsides of people being superficial, and making decisions based on that. So, even though humans would act like that, I assumed Vulcans at least outwardly wouldn't act like that. Nor would they necessarily be attracted to the same things humans are.

    With T'Pol specifically, I get the feeling she was treated like that because she was female. I don't recall male Vulcans being treated like that

  14. #899
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    More of an actor thing but one of the anecdotes from TOS is that Nimoy got more female fan mail than Shatner, which made the latter kind of jealous.
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  15. #900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    In the above post, I point out appearance has nothing to do with reproduction
    Well my point is Vulcans are not asexual, they do recognize what sexy is. They too have sexual desires which they act on, otherwise they wouldn’t reproduce.

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