Star Trek: All of Em

[sunofdarkchild]

I can't say I remember if the Federation claimed any area on the other side of the wormhole. The Bajorans certainly did given that they set up a colony which the Dominion wiped out before announcing they were claiming any rights.

Maybe space and Gamma Quadrant Law is different, but under most law empty land with no previous owner belongs to the first person to settle there. The Dominion would have a valid claim if they were there before the Federation, but they weren't. They were the ones who were entering territory that was already being settled by others. And there reaction was 'kill first, make demands and ask no questions at all.' You don't get to kill your new neighbor because he built a house on empty unused and unclaimed land year your house. If the land was unclaimed, it goes to the first person to settle there regardless of whether someone else wants it. It would be different if the Federation arrived 80 years later to find that the Dominion had naturally expanded into that area already. Then the Federation would have no claim and would have to listen to the Dominion. It would also help if the Dominion properly defined their boundaries so others would know where not to go, but claiming the entire Gamma Quadrant at that point was entirely false as other inhabited worlds near the wormhole didn't know what the Dominion was or knew it only as a rumor, which proves they were not sovereign in the area. They were aggressively expanding not as a natural course but in response to having a new neighbor.

The Federation had every right to contest the Dominion's claims to the area around the wormhole for these reasons, and at least on earth the Federation would win. 'We'd have conquered this area in 80 years' is no defense against 'well we're here now and we're here first.'

A similar situation occurred in TOS when the Gorn attacked a Federation colony which they considered an invading force in their territory, wiping it out. Kirk pursues the Gorn ship for revenge and eventually comes to realize the Gorn's point of view, which leads to negotiations. That simply was not possible with the Dominion because they could not tolerate any power other than their own or any sentient species which was not under their rule. Other nations like the Klingons and the Romulans respect powerful rivals and can coexist with other powers as equals. The Dominion is fundamentally incapable of that.

[babyblob]

I will grant you New Bajor settled there first. but was it the smartest thing for The Federation to keep sending ships into an area of space where there was a clearly war like race who as I said was looking for any excuse for a fight?

And I will say that The Federation was wrong for blocking The Dominion from send ships and supplies to Cardassia. Even if some of those shipments were military in nature. Cardassia no mater how it happened was a member of The Dominion. And if The Federation could go through the wormhole into the Gamma Quadrant then the Dominion has the same rights in reverse. It was smart from a tactical stand point. Legal? Most likely not.

And The Federation was planning for a first strike. Remember when Sisko talked to the crew before leaving the station? He talked about how Federation forces have destroyed a ship yard belonging to The Dominion. Did they just do this after Thee Dominion attacked the station? The Dominion attacked the station pretty quickly. So I suspect that the attack on the ship yard was already in the works and would have happened even if the Cardassians did not attack the station as The Federation was very much opposed to any sort of build up on Cardassia.

Yes The Dominion has a lot of the blame for the war. But painting The Federation as the innocent victim in the show just always bugged me because they were not as innocent as they wanted people to think. I think a lot of the actions of The Federation made it hard to convince The Dominion they were just peaceful explorers.

I mean we can talk about all the shady things the Dominion did. Like the Founder who took over and impersonated Martok. But The federation, Sisko in fact pulled The Romulans into the war with lies and tricks and assassination.

[sunofdarkchild]

Not every first strike is the same as Pearl Harbor. The Dominion was massing for war and they would soon have enough forces in Cardassian space to conquer all of the Alpha Quadrant. A war was inevitable and the only question was how badly the Federation and Klingons would be outgunned when it started. The attack on the shipyards was pre-planned and was the reason there were no reinforcements for when the Dominion attacked DS9. Everyone knew that the mining of the wormhole would lead to war, but for the Federation and the Klingons it was merely moving the war up so they'd stand a better chance rather than letting the Dominion dictate when the war would start. As Sisko said 'we're losing the peace, so a war may be our best hope.'

The Dominion doesn't have the same rights to the wormhole since it is in Bajoran space, in their solar system, even, where in the Gamma Quadrant it comes out into empty space outside of any star system. Every Alpha Quadrant ship that passes through has to receive permission from Bajor, which they usually grant. It turned Bajor into an economic superpower overnight.

The real terrible stuff was the poisoning of the founders, the use of deception and then murder to get the Romulans into the war, and how the Federation manipulated the Romulans during the war. The most surprising thing is that these crimes are almost always depicted as working to give the Federation the edge. The Romulans never discover that it was Garak who killed their Senator and their involvement turned the tide. The Federation succeeded in getting their agent put into an important position in the Romulan government. And the poisoning of the founders is what led them to finally sign a peace treaty that recognized the other side as equals. Every duplicitous, immoral act was rewarded even as the show called attention to how wrong it was. For a franchise like Star Trek it's astounding.

But then again, that's war. No one ever won a war by being nice or playing fair. Both sides committed crimes, but one was trying to defend its civilization, while the other was trying to crush other civilizations underfoot.

[babyblob]

I will agree with you on how it was atonding for the bad acts of the Federation to be rewarded. by getting The Romulans in to the war, the poisoning of the Founders that led to the end of the war. it was very un star Trek like. And that is why I enjoyed it so much. And why I enjoyed DS9 so much.

TOS, TNG both painted the Federation as this huge morally upstanding group that only wanted to explore and better themselves. Despite their we accept everyone views they looked down on The Ferangi, Romulans, and to some point The Klingons. I remember TNG episode where they thawed out those people from the 20th century. The Singer, The house wife and The Business man. Picard couldnt be bothered with them. Hell the Business man made him angry talking about how his way of life did not exist any more and that humanity was better for it etc..

DS9 was the only Star Trek show that really showed the cracks in the Federation. Exploring Greed, Sex, hate, violence and war. I really loved it.

You make your points well and I dont want to clog the thread down with debate. This was a lot of fun

[ChrisIII]

I wouldn't say that the Federation-starfleet in particular-were exactly saints before DEEP SPACE NINE either.

A lot of TOS and TNG episodes deal with corrupt or traumatized captains who have carved out their own small empires/violated the prime directive etc. Star Trek VI also revealed that Admiral Cartwright-shown as a pretty high up at Starfleet in IV (He was originally supposed to be Morrow, the guy from III but I guess the actor was unavailable) was corrupt as well. Kirk was hardly a saint at times himself. Picard had to deal with an overzealous retired Admiral turned prosecutor in THE DRUMHEAD. Also, different universe/Timeline and post-DS9 but the villains of Into Darkness and Beyond were also corrupted starfleet.

Not to mention that even among the main cast, Riker also had an ugly episode from his past (Which was revisited in ENT) and Wesley's stunt got a classmate killed; O'Brien likewise fought with the Cardassians in an unseen war and was deeply afffected by it which carried over to DS9....and Worf had a ton of baggage too.


Although some corrupt Star Fleet shenanigans can be based on other things. Gary Mitchell, for example, and the space slugs in the first season.

[DrNewGod]

...Although some corrupt Star Fleet shenanigans can be based on other things. Gary Mitchell, for example...

I'm not quite following you on that part. Would you mind expanding on your thoughts a bit?

[ChrisIII]

Mitchell was given god-like powers in the second pilot, WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE and used it for some evil purposes. However, it's possible the 'real' Gary was still buried within, there's a moment where his eyes clear from their 'god' state and he almost seems like he's woken up from some dream.

The space slugs were in CONSPIRACY where it turns out they had possessed a lot of Starfleet command and were influencing strange orders (probably to weaken the Federation for a more full-scale invasion), as well as their Queen embedded in the investigator (It's the infamous episode where he meets a very gory end).

[DrNewGod]

Mitchell was given god-like powers in the second pilot, WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE and used it for some evil purposes. However, it's possible the 'real' Gary was still buried within, there's a moment where his eyes clear from their 'god' state and he almost seems like he's woken up from some dream.

The space slugs were in CONSPIRACY where it turns out they had possessed a lot of Starfleet command and were influencing strange orders (probably to weaken the Federation for a more full-scale invasion), as well as their Queen embedded in the investigator (It's the infamous episode where he meets a very gory end).

I suppose when I hear corruption, I think of people surrendering to their baser instincts. I suppose Mitchell fits that bill, but I can't see the space slugs as corruption.

[Scott Taylor]

There was actually very little corruption among the humans in Star Trek. Its like Roddenberry assumed that once we solved the money problem in society, all of the corruption would go away. Other races, though, lots of corruption - Klingons, Romulans, Kardassians, Bejorans, Ferengi, etc.

Always thought it felt a bit off that humans were presented so superior to all the other races and so immune to common human frailties. A bit "50's white America", there.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I will agree with you on how it was atonding for the bad acts of the Federation to be rewarded. by getting The Romulans in to the war, the poisoning of the Founders that led to the end of the war. it was very un star Trek like. And that is why I enjoyed it so much. And why I enjoyed DS9 so much.

TOS, TNG both painted the Federation as this huge morally upstanding group that only wanted to explore and better themselves. Despite their we accept everyone views they looked down on The Ferangi, Romulans, and to some point The Klingons. I remember TNG episode where they thawed out those people from the 20th century. The Singer, The house wife and The Business man. Picard couldnt be bothered with them. Hell the Business man made him angry talking about how his way of life did not exist any more and that humanity was better for it etc..

DS9 was the only Star Trek show that really showed the cracks in the Federation. Exploring Greed, Sex, hate, violence and war. I really loved it.

You make your points well and I dont want to clog the thread down with debate. This was a lot of fun

Starfleet was willing to do morally ambiguous things back in the TOS days. In one episode Spock distracted a somewhat noble Romulan commander on her own ship with seduction so Kirk could secretly beam in, steal her ship's prototype invisibility device and beam out. They also were ok killing hostile deities, like Apollo, they came in contact with and having drinks afterward. Death was a constant in Trek on both sides of the equation and civilisations fell when they went against their ethics.

[Malvolio]

Starfleet was willing to do morally ambiguous things back in the TOS days. In one episode Spock distracted a somewhat noble Romulan commander on her own ship with seduction so Kirk could secretly beam in, steal her ship's prototype invisibility device and beam out. They also were ok killing hostile deities, like Apollo, they came in contact with and having drinks afterward. Death was a constant in Trek on both sides of the equation and civilisations fell when they went against their ethics.

I remember how when Wrath of Khan first came out, there was speculation that Saavik was the daughter of Spock and that Romulan Commander.

[DrNewGod]

S...They also were ok killing hostile deities, like Apollo, they came in contact with and having drinks afterward. Death was a constant in Trek on both sides of the equation and civilisations fell when they went against their ethics.

If fairness, they didn't kill Apollo as much as he just decided to suicide after the Enterprise destroyed his power source, and Apollo was planning to enslave the whole crew.

Your point about TOS being fine with tampering, and even destroying civilizations when it suited them is solid. For example, I've sometimes wondered what became of the society after Kirk and Spock boiled Landru's electronic brain.

[MyriVerse]

Always thought it felt a bit off that humans were presented so superior to all the other races and so immune to common human frailties. A bit "50's white America", there.

Except for all the corruption in 50s America.

[thwhtGuardian]

Except for all the corruption in 50s America.

And there was a lot of corruption in Star Fleet leadership as well on TOS so maybe it was purposeful.

[MyriVerse]

The corruption of Starfleet seemed more exceptions. Corruption in 50s America was systematic, cultural, and pervasive.