Star Trek: All of Em

[Pinsir]

Jonathan Frakes Compares Fan Reactions to New Shows to Next Generation

I'm really not a huge fan of this type of thinking. Sure, some series get better received as time goes on and so the bad earlier seasons get revisited in better light later, but you have to work hard to make the next seasons good. So far for DISCO that hasn't been happening.

Also, this media landscape is vastly different than the 90's one. There is a glut of tv shows out there, many of them sci-fi, and the Netflix model does not see very many shows reach beyond their 3rd season. You have to tell good stories immediately or get cancelled.

[kingaliencracker]

I'm really not a huge fan of this type of thinking. Sure, some series get better received as time goes on and so the bad earlier seasons get revisited in better light later, but you have to work hard to make the next seasons good. So far for DISCO that hasn't been happening.

Also, this media landscape is vastly different than the 90's one. There is a glut of tv shows out there, many of them sci-fi, and the Netflix model does not see very many shows reach beyond their 3rd season. You have to tell good stories immediately or get cancelled.

My main problem with Discovery is its complete lack of focus. For a show that's only 2 seasons and 29 episodes in length, I feel like we've had about a hundred different plots.

[Pinsir]

Sorry. I love DS9, and I would even accept the argument that from a technical standpoint (writing, effects) it was better than all other Trek. But I can't call it the best Star Trek show. While I don't adhere to the notion that Roddenberry's vision of a utopian is absolute, I do think there are certain principles and ideologies must transfer from one show to the next. It's clear in watching interviews with those behind the scenes that there was definitely an anti-Trek or anti-Federation mindset in the development of DS9, especially as the series progressed.

I don't think DS9 has an anti-Federation mentality. There have been critiques of the Federation even in the original series. Spock has been alienized and viewed with suspicion in certain episodes (Balance of Terror, The Galileo Seven) and in the episode The Way To Eden explores the idea that Star Trek citizens themselves are dissatisfied with Federation life. In TNG we also got two episodes explicitly depicting the Federation in a bad light too (Pegasus, The Drumhead).

[Joker]

^^The Federation had always been portrayed as imperfect, but DS9 focused on that idea the most.

There have been enough interviews and information passed around over the years to piece together what happened.

Terry Farrell was burned out, her contract expired, and Rick Berman treated her terribly. She was offered Becker, so she told Paramount to write her off of DS9.

I really wish they had not introduced Ezri. I don't know what their expectation of future seasons was at that point, but just letting Jadzia and the Trill leave the show and focus on the remaining cast would have been better. DS9 was such a solid show, but Season 7 really flubs it in a lot of places.

To introduce, and spend so much time focusing on a new character in what ended up being the final season was a mistake.

[Cyke]

I don't think DS9 has an anti-Federation mentality. There have been critiques of the Federation even in the original series. Spock has been alienized and viewed with suspicion in certain episodes (Balance of Terror, The Galileo Seven) and in the episode The Way To Eden explores the idea that Star Trek citizens themselves are dissatisfied with Federation life. In TNG we also got two episodes explicitly depicting the Federation in a bad light too (Pegasus, The Drumhead).

Agreed. it's really telling that by the very last episode of DS9, the Federation achieved perhaps its greatest win ever, and only thanks to the partnerships with the Klingons and Romulans (themselves the two big bads of TOS), and the Cardassians. For better or for worse, each of those alliances were forged by Starfleet officers (yes, Sisko crossed a line there with the Romulans, and Kira had to get a temporary field commission to represent Starfleet and not Bajor, but still). In effect, the Alpha Quadrant won because the Federation became a mega-Federation of equals for the war.

As for Bajor, the writers ended up not having Bajor join the Federation after all even though that's what they aimed for in season 1, with the writers essentially being, "Yeah, the Federation is great, but why is that the ultimate goal for a planet still trying to find itself?" Just because something is good doesn't necessarily mean it's a great fit, but the writers envisioned Bajor *eventually* joining the Federation, just that Bajor has its own critiques and concerns of the Federation itself.

[ChrisIII]

If I remember correctly they were going to in season 5, but Sisko sort of became "full Emmisary" for a while and prophesied disaster.

[BeastieRunner]

Any news on more Kelvin timeline stuff? I know they soft cancelled the 4th but now it sounds like it was more about paying Hemsworth and Pine more money that they didn't want to do.

I really enjoyed the Kelvin stuff, just not sure about another time travel story. I'd much rather they move forward with Captain Sulu, Vice Admiral Kirk, and Ambassador or Captain Spock while giving Chekov a nice send-off. Perhaps bring back Sofia Boutella as Jaylah to take on his role of the new, gung-ho, gifted recruit. Her and Pegg had great chemistry.

[ChrisIII]

It's still sort of in development hell but I think they're still trying to get a script ready.

They're still making the occasional novel or comic set in that universe.

[nx01a]

The real universe is back now. A final Kelvin movie where Kirk et al go back in time to save Vulcan and Chekov and erase their own timeline would be great.

[Joker]

I've been rewatching some early Season 2 DS9.

I know the early seasons get flack for being bad, but they're not all bad. There's a lot of great character building that happens in those early seasons, and I don't think it's as rich a show later, if you skipped those.

It's also interesting how serial the storytelling was, even then. It's more episodic, but noting just gets reset each week.

[Sutekh]

^^The Federation had always been portrayed as imperfect, but DS9 focused on that idea the most.



I really wish they had not introduced Ezri. I don't know what their expectation of future seasons was at that point, but just letting Jadzia and the Trill leave the show and focus on the remaining cast would have been better. DS9 was such a solid show, but Season 7 really flubs it in a lot of places.

To introduce, and spend so much time focusing on a new character in what ended up being the final season was a mistake.

After how self-confident Jadzia was, Ezri being so unsure of herself felt like a misstep. (Plus they'd already suggested that Trill are discouraged from associating too closely with their past lives, so the new Dax coming right back to the same place Jadzia lived seems off. Although I would have found it amusing if Dax got a standard new host, and not the first Trill available during an emergency, and followed the tradition of switching genders every generation, so the new Dax was a dude, prompting awkwardness from Worf, Bashir, Quark, etc. (all the dudes who were hot for Jadzia)...)

I particularly disliked how her primary counseling technique was to completely ignore whatever she was being told, go off on a tangent about her own problem-of-the-week and then sort of off-handedly say, 'maybe that would work for you too!' It's like having Cordelia (from Buffy) for your therapist, everything is all about her.

[Exciter]

The real universe is back now. A final Kelvin movie where Kirk et al go back in time to save Vulcan and Chekov and erase their own timeline would be great.

I kind of like the Kelvin Universe because it’s not tied to the canon. We know how the prime universe unfolds for like 150 years after the TOS era. New stories set in that time (comics, etc.) can’t do big things because it would screw up continuity (one of Discovery’s major sins). But the Kelvin timeline is different and therefore anything goes. Can Kirk and crew fight Q and the Borg and the Dominion? Sure! Could Klingons turn into purple bug aliens? I guess, sure. Characters can die, universe changing events can occur, etc. And if it sucks? It’s an alternate universe and doesn’t detract from or change the main one. No point in reversing that now, imo.

[WebLurker]

Recently been watching ST: Deep Space Nine or DS9. Didn't watch it all the way through when it originally aired. By season 4,the writing gets really good. Although it's debatable for some as it starts to becomes more serialized. The problem with that is if you miss an episode you might be confused by certain things-sometimes even minor ones. Credit to them for making some who at first seemed like they wouldn't be important and making them matter in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, the writers were pleased that they introduced the Dominion in a throwaway Ferengi episode, which would lead the average viewer to assume that this "Dominion" was nothing special until they came back in a big way.

[ChrisIII]

I've been rewatching some early Season 2 DS9.

I know the early seasons get flack for being bad, but they're not all bad. There's a lot of great character building that happens in those early seasons, and I don't think it's as rich a show later, if you skipped those.

It's also interesting how serial the storytelling was, even then. It's more episodic, but noting just gets reset each week.

One of the episodes in particular unites the three most memorable Klingon villains from TOS: Kor, Koloth and Kang (Along with updated makeup design). It was kind of a gimmick episode but pretty good nonetheless, and I think it's backstory has inspired one or two Trek novels.

[C_Miller]

My main problem with Discovery is its complete lack of focus. For a show that's only 2 seasons and 29 episodes in length, I feel like we've had about a hundred different plots.

I agree. I actually really love Discovery. I like the characters, for the most part I like the storylines and I think it's by far the best looking Star Trek thing ever. But oh man does it lack focus. It seems like they want to try and fit so much into the show.