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  1. #1336
    Astonishing Member Witchfan's Avatar
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    When Geordi is being held hostage by the Pakleds, Worf tells him that if he dies that he will never achieve the 24th Level of Awareness, which is the key to heroic salvation. Has anyone ever expanded upon the meaning of this? Is it a Klingon concept, or a Federation one?

  2. #1337
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    When Geordi is being held hostage by the Pakleds, Worf tells him that if he dies that he will never achieve the 24th Level of Awareness, which is the key to heroic salvation. Has anyone ever expanded upon the meaning of this? Is it a Klingon concept, or a Federation one?
    I would think Klingon one? But I have never heard it talked about before or sense. Then again since they were trying to bluff the Pakleds it may be something Worf pulled out of his behind.
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  3. #1338
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    When Geordi is being held hostage by the Pakleds, Worf tells him that if he dies that he will never achieve the 24th Level of Awareness, which is the key to heroic salvation. Has anyone ever expanded upon the meaning of this? Is it a Klingon concept, or a Federation one?
    Wasn't that part of a ruse to pass on a coded message? I don't think it has any other meaning or significance.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  4. #1339
    Astonishing Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I know the Ferengi episodes get a lot of hate. But the show is so much better with them. They are fun, a little goofy, and a good break from the bleak episodes that DS9 did after the war started. And when it comes to character growth no one had more then Nog. A lot of the other characters either stayed the same or changed so little it didnt matter. But Nog had real growth and he is the 3rd best character on the show. After Miles and Garak of course.
    Agree about Nog.
    Garak is without a doubt my most favorite "gray area" characters in all of Star Trek though.
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  5. #1340
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Looking at it. I think Nog may have had the best character development of any Star Trek character. I mean the ones that people claim have had growth never got out of their bit.

    Like Data in the movies was still doing the I dont understand human humor and behavior and not understanding human phrases that even though being around humans his whole life were some how never explained to him, Spock always played the Am I Vulcan or Human card, Seven never seemed to quite get back in touch with humanity again, Kira went from highly annoyed to highly pissed off and really not much in between A few soft moments with Odo and Vedek Bareil dont change that. Worf went from humorless Klingon on TNG to Humorless intense Klingon on DS9 but with a wife to Humorless intense Klingon who lost a wife. Jake was a childish kid who turned into a somewhat childish adult. His best story Was the Visitor that makes me cry every time but it was wiped away when he killed himself to save his dad. It would have been great to do the Whole "Your dad is Sisko, why arnt you in Star Fleet or doing more with yourself." Route. Reg went from hot mess on TNG to a hot Mess on Voyager. Doctor did the over played I want to be human story.

    And so on and so on.
    Last edited by babyblob; 11-29-2021 at 06:19 PM.
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  6. #1341
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    I never read about any Ferengi Episodes getting hate. Especially from DS9

    The Magnificent Ferengi was the funniest Trek Episode I ever watched. (Iggy Pop was great). I also loved that episode where Nog, Rom, and Quark went to the past and were taken for martian invaders. Adding Odo into the mess was completely priceless.

    Rom was one of my top 3 favorite characters (next to Garak and Sisko)

    DS9, I wasn't a fan of their mirror universe arcs too much...but that show had no bad episodes I could think of. By far the best character development of any show. The bartender had character growth. The bartender's brother had character growth. And the bartenders's son (I agree about Nog probably having he most) had character growth as well.

    Every time I watch a new Trek Series I never compare it to DS9 because of its borderline impossible high standards to beat. That show was really ahead of its time.
    Last edited by Godzilla2099; 11-29-2021 at 08:05 PM.

  7. #1342
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    I never read about any Ferengi Episodes getting hate. Especially from DS9
    The TNG Ferengi episodes were mostly horrible, not the least to do with the Ferengi being badly characterized, annoying, and underwhelming enemies. I think their only good episodes in TNG were The Battle and Peak Performance, maaaaaybe Ménage à Troi.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  8. #1343
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Funny that you mention the Mirror Arcs because tonight on tv on one of the stations they are showing "Shattered Mirror." You are right though there are no bad episodes. The One I have the hardest time watching oddly enough is my favorite. I cant watch it because of how emotional I get when I see it.

    I mentioned the Ferengi getting some the hate because I have seen some interviews a few years ago with a couple cast members and the producers who said they have had some negative feed back from fans.
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  9. #1344
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    My favorite DS9 ep is “In the Pale Moonlight” I always thought that if Picard found out what Sisko did; what he was involved in Picard would’ve brought him up for charges to be court martialed

  10. #1345
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Styles View Post
    My favorite DS9 ep is “In the Pale Moonlight” I always thought that if Picard found out what Sisko did; what he was involved in Picard would’ve brought him up for charges to be court martialed
    That is a really great one. Kind of smashes that all Starfleet officers can do no wrong.
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  11. #1346
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Looking at it. I think Nog may have had the best character development of any Star Trek character. I mean the ones that people claim have had growth never got out of their bit.

    Like Data in the movies was still doing the I dont understand human humor and behavior and not understanding human phrases that even though being around humans his whole life were some how never explained to him, Spock always played the Am I Vulcan or Human card, Seven never seemed to quite get back in touch with humanity again, Kira went from highly annoyed to highly pissed off and really not much in between A few soft moments with Odo and Vedek Bareil dont change that. Worf went from humorless Klingon on TNG to Humorless intense Klingon on DS9 but with a wife to Humorless intense Klingon who lost a wife. Jake was a childish kid who turned into a somewhat childish adult. His best story Was the Visitor that makes me cry every time but it was wiped away when he killed himself to save his dad. It would have been great to do the Whole "Your dad is Sisko, why arnt you in Star Fleet or doing more with yourself." Route. Reg went from hot mess on TNG to a hot Mess on Voyager. Doctor did the over played I want to be human story.

    And so on and so on.

    The movies seemed kind of inconsistent with the Data emotions thing. In Generations it's stuck in his head, then he can turn it on and off in FC, then he 'leaves it behind' in INSURRECTION, and also seems fairly unemotional in NEMESIS and to a degree PICARD as well. (I think some of the novels tried to explain that).

    Seven is much more human/emotional in PICARD.
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  12. #1347
    Astonishing Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Styles View Post
    My favorite DS9 ep is “In the Pale Moonlight” I always thought that if Picard found out what Sisko did; what he was involved in Picard would’ve brought him up for charges to be court martialed
    That may be my favorite episode of the run as well. It is one I choose to rewatch as a "one off" view when time is pressed.
    To me it is just one type of extreme we've seen in all of Trek, mostly from Kirk, Burnum on DISCO is a frequent abuser though of the the Prime Directive.
    Luring one into war through the subterfuge we see in this episode is one of those all time "do the ends justify the means". In the case of the Alpha Quadrant it is presented as just such.
    Also, Section 31 falls into this does it not?
    Was it also not the plot of ST:Into Darkness basically? Who gets to decide when one set of actions is "beyond the Pale" vs another's?
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  13. #1348
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    Dope, dope episode.

    I love how he ended his personal log.



    So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it… Computer, erase that entire personal log.

  14. #1349
    Ultimate Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    In the Pale Moonlight is probably the most talked about episode of DS9. It really said a lot about the "Fog of War," which was especially timely, considering what was going on with the US involvement in Iraq at the time.
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  15. #1350
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Funny that you mention the Mirror Arcs because tonight on tv on one of the stations they are showing "Shattered Mirror." You are right though there are no bad episodes. The One I have the hardest time watching oddly enough is my favorite. I cant watch it because of how emotional I get when I see it.
    I know that episode. Although my personal favorite was "In the Pale Moonlight," but if I had to vote 'best' its that one. You can see the passion Avery put on to those scenes especially. Although I vote it as the 'best' I'm there with you, it's not an episode I an watch many times due to the emotional impact is has on me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Styles View Post
    My favorite DS9 ep is “In the Pale Moonlight” I always thought that if Picard found out what Sisko did; what he was involved in Picard would’ve brought him up for charges to be court martialed
    Without hesitation, my favorite episode in all of Star Trek. Its the reason why Sisko and Garak are my favorites. I loved how Sisko was faced with the decision, "Die sticking to my beliefs? or Do what it takes to survive?" And Garak...he made guys like Cyclops and Batman look like amateurs with the way he planned it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beantownbrown View Post
    Dope, dope episode.

    I love how he ended his personal log.

    I remember showing this episode to my best bud who is barely a Star Trek Fan. At the end of that scene, his reaction was a very quiet..."Holy shit"
    Last edited by Godzilla2099; 11-30-2021 at 11:57 AM.

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