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  1. #1141
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    Funny thing is I think some of what Rodenberry intended for Number One if the Cage went to series was for her to be the cold, logical one (she's described as "Glaciarlike" in the series bible). When the series was retooled with Kirk, Spock took that and the First officer position.
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  2. #1142
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Funny thing is I think some of what Rodenberry intended for Number One if the Cage went to series was for her to be the cold, logical one (she's described as "Glaciarlike" in the series bible). When the series was retooled with Kirk, Spock took that and the First officer position.
    Yeah, that pilot had Spock all loud and shouty and I do not think they were going for 'emotionless' there. It would have been a very different Spock, if Number One had remained 'the logical one.'

  3. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Not a surprise, the bottom half of your ranking has all the women and Sulu is not even a top 3 .Yep, what this ranking does is shows just how bad the racism and sexism was in the 60s even if Star Trek does get praise for been a very progressive show.

    It is a good statistics ranking because it exposes how crappy the 60s was with females and minorities.
    Not sure how the average fan could have Sulu in the top 3 over Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty? He wasn't written to do very much beyond firing phasers, almost freezing to death, or wielding a sword. Understood about the nature of the times, but it is what it is. All we can do is continue to grow and improve.

  4. #1144
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    How many times did Sulu have any character in the whole franchise? In TOS he had his shirtless moment when everyone's inhibitions were removed and his Mirror counterpart got to be very smarmy, and almost nothing beyond that. Both Uhura and especially Checkov got to do a lot more than he did. He got the short end of the stick throughout the TOS movies, with his biggest moment before 6 being the suplex he did on the big guard in Search for Spock along with the 'don't call me tiny' line. He was the only character to not get a subplot in The Voyage Home. In 6 he was finally given something to do other than say aye captain' and steer the ship, and the Voyager episode where he gust-starred further explored his motivations.

    George Takai can chew scenery just as well as Shatner, but he was never given a chance to do it in Star Trek.

  5. #1145
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    How many times did Sulu have any character in the whole franchise? In TOS he had his shirtless moment when everyone's inhibitions were removed and his Mirror counterpart got to be very smarmy, and almost nothing beyond that. Both Uhura and especially Checkov got to do a lot more than he did. He got the short end of the stick throughout the TOS movies, with his biggest moment before 6 being the suplex he did on the big guard in Search for Spock along with the 'don't call me tiny' line. He was the only character to not get a subplot in The Voyage Home. In 6 he was finally given something to do other than say aye captain' and steer the ship, and the Voyager episode where he gust-starred further explored his motivations.

    George Takai can chew scenery just as well as Shatner, but he was never given a chance to do it in Star Trek.
    The original series wasn't the best for characterizing anyone outside of the main 3 and sometimes Scotty

  6. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    How many times did Sulu have any character in the whole franchise? In TOS he had his shirtless moment when everyone's inhibitions were removed and his Mirror counterpart got to be very smarmy, and almost nothing beyond that. Both Uhura and especially Checkov got to do a lot more than he did. He got the short end of the stick throughout the TOS movies, with his biggest moment before 6 being the suplex he did on the big guard in Search for Spock along with the 'don't call me tiny' line. He was the only character to not get a subplot in The Voyage Home. In 6 he was finally given something to do other than say aye captain' and steer the ship, and the Voyager episode where he gust-starred further explored his motivations.

    George Takai can chew scenery just as well as Shatner, but he was never given a chance to do it in Star Trek.
    During the second season, Takei was not in several episodes because he was filming The Green Berets with John Wayne, a film that was delayed due to heavy rains in the Philippines, where they shot the film. So Sulu's lines in several scripts were given to Chekov. Of course, that also shows how interchangeable the characters were to the writers.
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  7. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Funny thing is I think some of what Rodenberry intended for Number One if the Cage went to series was for her to be the cold, logical one (she's described as "Glaciarlike" in the series bible). When the series was retooled with Kirk, Spock took that and the First officer position.
    I remember the famous scene in "The Cage" where Spock smiles and then when he yells when he realizes only the women were transported.

    I honestly don't think almost anything that later became a part of what a vulcan is was there in "The Cage".

    In the second pilot, vulcans were logical and unfeeling but not telepathic hence no problem going through the barrier.

    "Dagger of the Mind" made vulcans telepathic although Spock almost implies it is not telepathy but a strange connection of their nervous systems.

    "The Naked Time" made up the neck pinch and "This Side of Paradise" gave them greater strength than humans.

    I personally think the second eyelid in "Operation: Annihilate" was a step too far and giving them faster reflexes in DS9 was another step into "We can throw anything in because Vulcans can do that".

    Vulcans were definitely a process. But it's amazing that Roddenberry wanted the First Officer to be a woman in 1965. I think the only flaw was that he presented it as something new that men had a hard time coping with instead of how it had been long before they were born. Well, two flaws. Making her cold was also a way of implying she was exceptional and not like other women. But he had to connect to the audience in the 1960s so it's understandable.

    From an old interview, Roddenberry said men didn't seem to have that much problem with it, that most of the criticism came from women in "Who does she think she is?" way.
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  8. #1148
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    Really? Women had the biggest problem with Number One? I wonder why.

  9. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Really? Women had the biggest problem with Number One? I wonder why.
    It's easy to internalize your current situation as 'fine' or 'as good as it gets' or 'the best I can do' and see someone rise above it and feel like it's a personal insult to you that they are flaunting being up there instead of 'knowing their place' and accepting the same lowly status as you did like a good dog.

    The person who works their butt off at work and gets promoted ahead of you? Oh, they're a butt-kisser. The kid who is always studying and always answers the questions right? Teacher's pet. The girl who always gets the lead role when she auditions for the school play? Show off. Rather than accept that some people are just flat out trying harder than we are, it's easier to drag them down, than admit that maybe, just maybe, *we* could be trying a little harder to better ourselves.

    And this was from a generation where, in many cases, women were strongly discouraged from ambitions bigger than marrying and pumping out kids. My math teacher in high school mentioned that in college she held up her hand to answer a question the professor posed and he ignored her, and when she asked him about it, he rolled his eyes and said, "Oh, you ladies are just here for an MRS degree anyway, why bother?" (Since he believed that was the only reason a woman would go to college, to find an educated man to marry.)

  10. #1150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    It's easy to internalize your current situation as 'fine' or 'as good as it gets' or 'the best I can do' and see someone rise above it and feel like it's a personal insult to you that they are flaunting being up there instead of 'knowing their place' and accepting the same lowly status as you did like a good dog.

    The person who works their butt off at work and gets promoted ahead of you? Oh, they're a butt-kisser. The kid who is always studying and always answers the questions right? Teacher's pet. The girl who always gets the lead role when she auditions for the school play? Show off. Rather than accept that some people are just flat out trying harder than we are, it's easier to drag them down, than admit that maybe, just maybe, *we* could be trying a little harder to better ourselves.

    And this was from a generation where, in many cases, women were strongly discouraged from ambitions bigger than marrying and pumping out kids. My math teacher in high school mentioned that in college she held up her hand to answer a question the professor posed and he ignored her, and when she asked him about it, he rolled his eyes and said, "Oh, you ladies are just here for an MRS degree anyway, why bother?" (Since he believed that was the only reason a woman would go to college, to find an educated man to marry.)
    That's just about exactly what Roddenberry said. The female reaction seemed to be, "Who does she think she is- giving men orders?" The attitude seemed very much that she was exceeding her position in life. In other words, the position of second class citizen that most women were in at that time.
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  11. #1151
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    Oh. I'd presume more men would be offended by that.

  12. #1152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Yeah, that pilot had Spock all loud and shouty and I do not think they were going for 'emotionless' there. It would have been a very different Spock, if Number One had remained 'the logical one.'
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  13. #1153
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    The original series wasn't the best for characterizing anyone outside of the main 3 and sometimes Scotty
    I think they tried to do that in season 3 more with Chechov, in WAY TO EDEN. Although originally instead of Pavel's ex it was meant to be McCoy's daughter.
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  14. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I think they tried to do that in season 3 more with Chechov, in WAY TO EDEN. Although originally instead of Pavel's ex it was meant to be McCoy's daughter.
    Yeah, they dried a bit but not much

  15. #1155
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    Kind of curious what they had planned for Phase II for the original cast. Although it was almost certain storylines would revolve around Decker, Illia, and Xon (Who pretty much laid the groundwork for Riker, Troi, and Data later on) kind of wonder if we'd have any new details about Kirk, McCoy and the rest of the original crew.

    There was a bit about Chekhov becoming sort of becoming Spock's understudy in the original as we occasionally saw him at science. We don't really see too much of this in the movies except for VI where along with Valeris he's Watson to Spock's Sherlock Holmes.
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