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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbrklyn View Post
    Oh please. Hal Jordan is the best character DC generated and these other wannabes can all die and nobody would miss them.
    Stop. Every hero has their fans, whether they've been written for 50 years, 20 or 10. Don't be that guy who thinks his version is the only one important. Anger at the people who made Hal Jordan evil or killing Barry is appropriate, but the fans who came in after and fell in love with the next heroes have also paid for their comics and deserve a good treatment.

  2. #62
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Regarding Jason Todd's death being mucked up because they brought him back I heartily disagree. In my opinion it was already screwed up because of the gimmicky 1-900 vote that DC used to cover their a$$e$. They wanted to be rid of him so they chose the most brutal shock value way to do it and then pushed the blame onto the fans instead of giving him any kind of a honorable death such as Barry had. The cautionary tale aspect might have been fine with me had writers not elected to employ the art of character assassination in order to achieve it. To this day they've managed to so successfully label him as the "Bad Robin" that it's all fans think they remember of his time in that role.
    Eh I think the gimmick was fine for the time, it showed what the fans wanted. Or at least the ones who cared enough to call in. Jason was a clone of Dick right down to his original origin, when they changed it they made him a more tough and tumble Robin. That kind of Robin compared to Dick makes him seem more like the "bad" Robin. His character wasn't that well defined/detailed up until his death. He was only around 5 years, not long enough to be a fully realized character. Yeah it sucks that his time was cut short but everything Batman was all the better for it. We got the solo Batman everyone loves so much, the cautionary tale with rich and important pathos to the family, Tim Drake, etc. His death meant something, him coming back ruins that especially becoming Red Hood and an Anti-hero. The killing flies in the face of Bruce's mission and makes everyone look like a hypocrite who accepts him back. But whatever, he's back and all the damage has already been done.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Yeah... been there and done that.

    I think you've got some wires crossed somewhere. I'm 41 and been reading same as you since the 80's and spent more than my share of time amongst the backissue boxes.

    I think you're missing the heavy dose of sarcasm I've been injecting here. I know it's 3am here, so maybe it isn't that clear... or maybe you've read too fast, but Just because I know where Buried Alien's and Dred's comments are coming from... does not mean that I am in any way anti-nostalgia, Anti-90's or anti-classic/icons.

    Hal Jordan is and always will be my favorite Green Lantern. The books written from the 70's-90's were the true golden age of comics for me. I can barely stomach anything that's been written in the last decade.
    Well, I already admitted that I am confused as to how this conversation is evolving ...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Yeah... been there and done that.

    I think you've got some wires crossed somewhere. I'm 41 and been reading same as you since the 80's and spent more than my share of time amongst the backissue boxes.

    I think you're missing the heavy dose of sarcasm I've been injecting here. I know it's 3am here, so maybe it isn't that clear... or maybe you've read too fast, but Just because I know where Buried Alien's and Dred's comments are coming from... does not mean that I am in any way anti-nostalgia, Anti-90's or anti-classic/icons.

    Hal Jordan is and always will be my favorite Green Lantern. The books written from the 70's-90's were the true golden age of comics for me. I can barely stomach anything that's been written in the last decade.
    Here is a treat then! Sorry for the confusion.

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  5. #65
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post

    Jason I Agree with you completely. The idea of him being a cautionary tale and the way his ghost Haunted Batman and Tim's whole career was epic. That trophy case just lingering in the cave as a reminder was perfect as was. Bringing him back was one of the worst mistakes they've done.
    And yet, Jason Todd as the Red Hood has been commercially and critically far, far, far more successful than Jason Todd as the second Robin ever was back in the 1980s.

    Jason's tenure as the Red Hood is already more than three times longer than his tenure as Robin. Go figure.

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    Last edited by Buried Alien; 09-28-2018 at 12:33 AM.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    And yet, Jason Todd as the Red Hood has been commercially and critically far, far, far more successful than Jason Todd as the second Robin eve was back in the 1980s.

    Jason's tenure as the Red Hood is already more than three times longer than his tenure as Robin. Go figure.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Annimation support. It is not often discussed, but the buying habits and expectations of folks is often forged by an introduction to the material through animation. This was even true of Superman in the early 1940's.

  7. #67
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Regarding Jason Todd's death being mucked up because they brought him back I heartily disagree. In my opinion it was already screwed up because of the gimmicky 1-900 vote that DC used to cover their a$$e$. They wanted to be rid of him so they chose the most brutal shock value way to do it and then pushed the blame onto the fans instead of giving him any kind of a honorable death such as Barry had. The cautionary tale aspect might have been fine with me had writers not elected to employ the art of character assassination in order to achieve it. To this day they've managed to so successfully label him as the "Bad Robin" that it's all fans think they remember of his time in that role.
    When Jason was Robin, the writers and editors didn't seem quite sure what to do with him. One camp seemed bent on making him Dick Grayson-lite, while the other camp wanted to go in the complete opposite direction (a street punk who wasn't above cold-blooded murder when it suited him).

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  8. #68
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbrklyn View Post
    Annimation support. It is not often discussed, but the buying habits and expectations of folks is often forged by an introduction to the material through animation. This was even true of Superman in the early 1940's.
    Jason had caught the momentum as a newly popular character as the Red Hood years before his story was distributed in animated form. Jason Todd might very well be the best example of a previously failed character reclaimed and reconstructed into a successful one. Maybe in the 1980s, the reading public just wasn't ready for Jason. By the middle of the 2000s, they were.

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  9. #69
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Jason had caught the momentum as a newly popular character as the Red Hood years before his story was distributed in animated form. Jason Todd might very well be the best example of a previously failed character reclaimed and reconstructed into a successful one. Maybe in the 1980s, the reading public just wasn't ready for Jason. By the middle of the 2000s, they were.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    That's because now it seems that being a proper good guy is no longer fashionable. Brutal heroics is so chic.
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  10. #70
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Jason had caught the momentum as a newly popular character as the Red Hood years before his story was distributed in animated form. Jason Todd might very well be the best example of a previously failed character reclaimed and reconstructed into a successful one. Maybe in the 1980s, the reading public just wasn't ready for Jason. By the middle of the 2000s, they were.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I do agree with mrbrklyn, the Under the Red hood animated movie is where a lot of people I know became fans of the character. Their first exposure to his return, it's a damn good story and done really well in animation. Plus he was voiced by Jensen Ackles which is an easy way to get fans.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    That's because now it seems that being a proper good guy is no longer fashionable. Brutal heroics is so chic.
    Ironically, that trend had already started during Jason's time as Robin. Over at Marvel during the same period, Wolverine and Punisher were rapidly rising to become Marvel's most popular "heroes," though worse was to come the following decade.

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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    That's because now it seems that being a proper good guy is no longer fashionable. Brutal heroics is so chic.
    What is a proper good guy?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    What is a proper good guy?
    Well I would define it as a hero with uncompromising morals/convictions in the face of great adversity or strife. They have a solid sense of right and wrong, never escalate a fight unless prompted in reaction to whatever villain and always put the needs of many ahead of themselves.

    It seems to me people don't really care about stuff like this anymore. More in favor of brutal justice and killing and what not. I feel like DC is unironically moving towards Kingdom Come.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    What is a proper good guy?
    No such thing, to be honest. No hero is as proper or pure as fans think, except Superman and Shazam. It's delusional at this point.
    Last edited by Raijin; 09-28-2018 at 03:19 AM.
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  15. #75
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Eh I think the gimmick was fine for the time, it showed what the fans wanted. Or at least the ones who cared enough to call in. Jason was a clone of Dick right down to his original origin, when they changed it they made him a more tough and tumble Robin. That kind of Robin compared to Dick makes him seem more like the "bad" Robin. His character wasn't that well defined/detailed up until his death. He was only around 5 years, not long enough to be a fully realized character. Yeah it sucks that his time was cut short but everything Batman was all the better for it. We got the solo Batman everyone loves so much, the cautionary tale with rich and important pathos to the family, Tim Drake, etc. His death meant something, him coming back ruins that especially becoming Red Hood and an Anti-hero. The killing flies in the face of Bruce's mission and makes everyone look like a hypocrite who accepts him back. But whatever, he's back and all the damage has already been done.
    I disagree with the gimmick being "fine" and with the pass some fans always seem to give it when they decry nearly every gimmick that comes along these days. Why does this particular one get a free pass every time? Hating on a character hardly makes this type of asinine gimmick right. Its hardly different than any of the others and in some aspects it is far, far worse, in the same vein using a character for cannon fodder and nothing else. I was a reader at the time and all this gimmicky death did was cause me to drop comics altogether for well over a decade not because of the death itself but because I found the 1-900 vote gimmick attached to it to be in very bad taste. All it showed me was that the writers were willing to let fans take the blame for a character's death and that the writers just didn't have the stones to kill him off without covering their butts first. That's how I felt at the time and its still how I feel about the whole thing.

    Also to me he was a fully fleshed out character with his own personality and quirks and personally I enjoyed that he was a different type of character than Dick was Post-Crisis. Made for a nice contrast in my opinion that helped to highlight Dick's character as well. He had that "bad boy" image back then but he really wasn't that at all. Even fairly early on after his death his death was treated as if it meant something and his character was treated respectfully. The problem though was that later writers twisted that bad boy image into his being the "Bad (as in not good enough to be) Robin" the farther we got from his death so in all honesty the whole 'cautionary tale" aspect of it fell completely flat. It shifted from being about dying while on duty being a real possibility and to respect that danger involved to being "don't be like Jason because his mistakes/dis-regard for our rules/inability to think things through/his anger got him killed.
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