The Mission - Nov 3, 2014

[CBR News]

Joseph Illidge discusses the upcoming "Black Panther" and "Cyborg" solo films, and the major differences between the two heroes.


Full article here.

[HUTHAIFA]

I dont get the rationale behind the Cyborg movie. The character newfound popularity comes from the cartoons, which would you think that this would be a live action Teen Titans movie. Cyborg is a supporting character for all of his existence. He lacks the groundwork to be a worthwhile movie. All of the other movies scream franchise, this feels like a one and done.

[Double 0]

Honestly, I think the major difference is even simpler than what Mr. Illidge stated, though he as a great point.

One character was built as a solo act, the other is a team book hero. One had a world built around him, the other is a satellite character of now two worlds (Teen Titans, Justice League). By that nature, it's going to be more difficult to make a marketable and fully developed hero out of Cyborg without starting from borderline scratch.

Meanwhile, you have at least four runs you can base Black Panther on: Kirby, Priest, Hudlin, McGregor. You can even take bits and pieces from all four.

Marvel has an easier job cut out for them.

[skyvolt2000]

Honestly, I think the major difference is even simpler than what Mr. Illidge stated, though he as a great point.

One character was built as a solo act, the other is a team book hero. One had a world built around him, the other is a satellite character of now two worlds (Teen Titans, Justice League). By that nature, it's going to be more difficult to make a marketable and fully developed hero out of Cyborg without starting from borderline scratch.

Meanwhile, you have at least four runs you can base Black Panther on: Kirby, Priest, Hudlin, McGregor. You can even take bits and pieces from all four.

Marvel has an easier job cut out for them.

Don't forget the various minis and one shot stories in Marvel Comic Presents that BP has as well.

[DarkBeast]

I agree with a lot of the analysis here and it's an extremely well-written article.

But I think I disagree with some fundamental assertions:

-That we need more "black movies for black people".

-That strong/admirable characters in fiction matter SO MUCH for modeling the behavior of real people in the real world.

First of all, just to get it stated: I applaud and am looking forward to all of these movies. Can't wait for "Black Panther". Been a fan of Cyborg for years. And I think Michael B. Jordan seems far and away the best aspect of the new FF movie.

But it's like people forget that the Blade trilogy happened or something. Making it seem like these new movies are only being made now because in the near future black Americans will have a higher buying power or whatever just seems... too narrowly focused. "Blade" 1-3 happened. "STEEL" happened in the '90s! Storm was a major figure in the early X-Men movies. It's like people are forgetting this stuff. I'm not saying progress isn't being made. It is and I applaud it. But it's like over the last few years people just think that it's so unprecedented for minorities to have these sorts of roles and movies. There was Meteor Man, man. And Meteor Man obviously wasn't as big a deal as Black Panther will be, but it did happen. Hancock happened and was HUGE. And Blade was a pretty decent franchise. People forget this. When those movies were made, it wasn't like the suits were saying "In 2030 black Americans will have such-and-such buying power", they were just making movies most of which were profitable at the time.

Even the Halle Berry Catwoman movie. Sure it flopped (relatively), but it happened. The studios took a chance on it. Both white people and black people had pretty much the same negative opinion of it, same way as both white people and black people had pretty much the same positive opinion of Blade. But in the last few years there's just been this atmosphere of thinking that "A black female as the lead character in a Big Two superhero movie? That'll never happen." Uh, it already did. "A black male as the lead character in a Big Two superhero film franchise trilogy? That'll never happen. Tough sell." Uh, it already did.

That's not to take away from what the new Black Panther and Cyborg movies will be. They definitely represent steps forward, and their lead characters are definitely admirable in ways that characters like Blade (a shadowy figure) might not be. But sometimes I think we forget history here. There have been big budget black superhero movies before; some were successful, some weren't; a good number of them had crossover appeal.

My second point is about the ideas that "Black women need to see strong black men in films" or "Black children need to see strong black role models in films". I'm paraphrasing. And this idea has been applied to a lot of different audiences, not just black moviegoers. Obviously. But I think the whole notion is just exaggerated. I think ALL PEOPLE are MUCH more influenced by REAL positive role models in their own REAL LIVES. I just think that sometimes we forget that point. Having good parents, teachers, older siblings, elders, and other people in the neighborhood -- that stuff helps INFINITELY more than seeing madeup people on movie screens and computer screens. I just think that point gets lost. So when I hear or read things like "Little girls need to see positive role female role models in cartoons", I think "Yeah... that could help, but it's not going to impact someone's life nearly as much as having good parents or teachers would." When we get into these sorts of discussions about media, and comics, and films, I think that after a certain point we get locked into this insular thought-process where we assume that every potential audience member out there is just a hollow person or a blank slate or whatever. And we assume things like "Okay, if there's a Captain Marvel movie, that will really help the little girls of this country." And it's like, dear god, do you realize how low on the list of priorities a superhero movie would be in terms of REALLY improving REAL lives? We're so wrapped up in media that we forget there's a real world out there and assume that just SEEING an IMAGE of someone admirable will automatically make the viewer a stronger and better person or something. It's just weird.

Anyway, I really did like the article overall. Those were just the thoughts you spurred in me.

[NateDizzy]

I'm not a black man, but I do enjoy these articles. Thank you, Mr. Illidge, for a well written perspective I wouldn't otherwise consider.

[Miracleman]

I understand most of what he is speaking about in the article. Yet,these comments border on strange

"Since Black women want to see, for reasons of attraction in various contexts, Black men as caring, commanding, handsome, and realizing their financial and emotional growth potential, they want to see Black men visualized in a positive light.

The main issue with the first commentary is that a good majority of Black women feel that when a Black man is shown in a positive light. It usually comes at the cost that he is with a blonde haired,light eyed woman. They get a sense of betrayal.

"Since men and women from other ethnic and cultural backgrounds recognize qualities in the Black man, qualities which activate interests either emotional or carnal or both, they want to see Black men visualized in a positive light"

This second comment is a bit more strange and borders on the writer's possible personal sexual interests. I am of a minority group and I recognize a person as a person regardless of their ethnicity. I don't go to see Blade to see the power of his "blackness" or whatever the hell he is discussing. The whole every other cultural and ethnic groups focus on the black man's qualities for either emotional or carnal is rather arrogant in making it sound as if every other group on the planet makes a black person that much a focus in their daily life.

To write an article about making strides in showing strong black males really should not have to depend on his masculine qualities. Just more about being an interesting character to watch. It would be like me as a latino male saying it's important that a solo film of white tiger or the santerian's get's made because i want to see the pride they have in their chest hair, or their ability to dance.

[Robotman]

I think Cyborg would be a lot more visually appealing and less of a tragic figure if they simply got rid of the Phantom of the Opera face plate.
I love Cyborg but he does stand out on the current Justice League roster and it has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Vic is the only member that isn't a wish fulfillment character with a perfect face and physique. Geoff Johns doesn't seem to realize that having the only minority on the Justice League be a "freak" doesn't look very good.
I know Cyborg is a product of the time he was created. The tragic X Men-like characters were the most popular in the late 70s and 80s. His creator Marv Wolfman said he prefers tragic characters over any other characters.
I think allowing Cyborg to have a fully uncovered face would go a long way.

Something like this:

[DJfunkyPuddle]

I think Cyborg would be a lot more visually appealing and less of a tragic figure if they simply got rid of the Phantom of the Opera face plate.
I love Cyborg but he does stand out on the current Justice League roster and it has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Vic is the only member that isn't a wish fulfillment character with a perfect face and physique. Geoff Johns doesn't seem to realize that having the only minority on the Justice League be a "freak" doesn't look very good.
I know Cyborg is a product of the time he was created. The tragic X Men-like characters were the most popular in the late 70s and 80s. His creator Marv Wolfman said he prefers tragic characters over any other characters.
I think allowing Cyborg to have a fully uncovered face would go a long way.

Something like this:

You make a really good point regarding the face, but I'd take it a step further and mimic Deus Ex: Human Revolution's augmentations. Several of the character had kind of skin-tone mechanical body parts; it would be more futuristic to have Vic's tech actually 'pop' out of his skin and make him seem like less of a Robocop knockoff.

[marcotheblerd]

I know alot of people roll their eyes, whenever someone of color mentions how they like to see more of themselves in fiction, but representation does matter. When I was 9, I hadn't started reading comics yet, but I was really into superheroes thanks to Batman TAS, and the Fox Kids Marvel series like X-Men, Fantastic Four, & Spider-Man. My favorite of course was Batman, because he was rich, intelligent, great fighter, and drove the coolest car in history. His race was never a factor to me, because at that time, I thought that all superheroes were white. The only black superhero I knew of, was Meteor Man, which was a comedy movie. It was until I was first introduced to T'Challa on the Fantastic Four cartoon, where he invited the FF to Wakanda, and took them all out one by one to test his skills and it blew my mind. I had no idea that an African man could be a Marvel superhero, let alone team up with the Fantastic Four. Plus like Batman, he was intelligent, wealthy and a great fighter, three things that reminded me of Batman.

Now I instantly wanted to know more about this character, so I asked my dad to take me to a comic book store to get some comics about him. Those comics got me interested in Marvel Universe as a whole, and from that point on, every other week I started buying comics. 20 years later, I am one of the biggest fanboys and I honestly wouldn't have started buying comics until I was inspired to learn more about black Panther, since I that was my only way to learn more about him. So whenever people complain when a minority character gets some attention, I just think about the little black kids out there who are open to be comic fans, but probably had no idea that they could be represented also. Superheroes are about escapism, and its alot cooler when the guy you want to imagine yourself as, has alot in common with you. While Batman is still the top guy in my house, T"Challa was the gateway for me to go from a casual cartoon fan, to full on comic fanboy.

Nowadays on tv we have more representation with characters like Cyborg, Falcon, BP & War Machine. The BP movie will be great for casual Marvel fans who havent really got into the comics, and may make way for people to get into the comics to read up on him.

[Confuzzled]

My second point is about the ideas that "Black women need to see strong black men in films" or "Black children need to see strong black role models in films". I'm paraphrasing. And this idea has been applied to a lot of different audiences, not just black moviegoers. Obviously. But I think the whole notion is just exaggerated. I think ALL PEOPLE are MUCH more influenced by REAL positive role models in their own REAL LIVES. I just think that sometimes we forget that point. Having good parents, teachers, older siblings, elders, and other people in the neighborhood -- that stuff helps INFINITELY more than seeing madeup people on movie screens and computer screens. I just think that point gets lost. So when I hear or read things like "Little girls need to see positive role female role models in cartoons", I think "Yeah... that could help, but it's not going to impact someone's life nearly as much as having good parents or teachers would." When we get into these sorts of discussions about media, and comics, and films, I think that after a certain point we get locked into this insular thought-process where we assume that every potential audience member out there is just a hollow person or a blank slate or whatever. And we assume things like "Okay, if there's a Captain Marvel movie, that will really help the little girls of this country." And it's like, dear god, do you realize how low on the list of priorities a superhero movie would be in terms of REALLY improving REAL lives? We're so wrapped up in media that we forget there's a real world out there and assume that just SEEING an IMAGE of someone admirable will automatically make the viewer a stronger and better person or something. It's just weird.

You're not getting the point. Not every person, especially a minority child from an impoverished background, is afforded the luxury of a "real-life role model". And even if there are positive and inspiring individuals in the family and community, representation in media, especially in escapism fiction like big-budget superhero blockbusters, expands horizons and brings to light possibilities and capabilities that may have never occurred before. And effective representation doesn't just affect the demographic being represented in a positive manner. It also plays a role in bridging distances between diverse members of society in more ways than one. The influence of pop-culture is so incredibly potent that I cannot believe how some people still tend to underestimate it so much.

[Coin Biter]

I know very little about Cyborg, but it is going to be fairly odd that you will have one disfigured cybernetically enhanced African American protagonist (J August Richards as Deathlok) on TV, and another disfigured cybernetically enhanced African American protagonist (Ray Fisher as Cyborg) on film. That's a very specific kind of similarity.

One thing that strikes me as someone who's largely ignorant about the Cyborg character is that attitudes to disfigurement were probably rather different in 1980 to how they are now - does that play into his current portrayal in the comics?

I hope that fans of both characters get the quality of film they're hoping for.

[Starchild]

It seems like the writer of this article craps all over Cyborg.