Wonder Woman vs Green Lantern

[Captain Morgan]

Does Rebirth Diana have any big speed feats? The best I've seen is like low end multi Mach stuff. Which is fast enough to get some hits in, but I'm not sure if she can full blown blitz in the light speed sense.

Jessica was indeed incompetent for a while. She's since made significant progress and done a boot camp with Guy Gardner, and seems to now have the standard chops. Even before then, when she couldn't make constructs, she was doing stuff like pushing all the water out of Beijing when it has flooded to the point of sky scrapers being at least half way submerged. So she's certainly got some raw power to bring to bear.

[Pendaran]

Does Rebirth Diana have any big speed feats? The best I've seen is like low end multi Mach stuff. Which is fast enough to get some hits in, but I'm not sure if she can full blown blitz in the light speed sense.

Jessica was indeed incompetent for a while. She's since made significant progress and done a boot camp with Guy Gardner, and seems to now have the standard chops. Even before then, when she couldn't make constructs, she was doing stuff like pushing all the water out of Beijing when it has flooded to the point of sky scrapers being at least half way submerged. So she's certainly got some raw power to bring to bear.

Can the rings actually teleport people though?

[Slade1]

Can the rings actually teleport people though?

In one of the JLA issues of the Morrison era, Kyle Rayner teleports an alien to another planet.

[Captain Morgan]

Can the rings actually teleport people though?

Post crisis? Definitely. I don't recall it being done in the Nu or Rebirth setting though. I also haven't read that especially religiously. And while there's a pretty decent case for post crisis still being cannon for GL stuff, they also have played up teleporting as something the Indigo Tribe has specifically. (To be fair, the Indigos can port anywhere in the universe, and the longest range I recall for post crisis lanterns was between the moon and earth or across the United States. So one could make a case the Indigos just do it better, and the other Lanterns rely on them for distance stuff.

All that is to say I don't think Jessica can teleport Diana into the sun. There's effectively three strikes against the idea.

That being said, she can probably do something to ruin Diana's day given time to act, such as using her aforementioned considerable power concentrated into razor blade constructs appearing inside Diana. So the question becomes "can Diana blitz hard enough to prevent that." To which I say... Maaaaaybe? Diana's speed and power are largely based off fights with Kryptonians
The best Nu autoshield feat (or as close as I can tell) involved Sinestro being at the epicenter of a planet buster and only looking mildly singed. Make of that what you will.

[Captain Morgan]

In one of the JLA issues of the Morrison era, Kyle Rayner teleports an alien to another planet.

Got an issue number? It's rare I miss a Kyle feat.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I think it was in the Post Crisis era that Hal's ring opened up a wormhole to Oa while he was unconscious, and I'm pretty sure I've seen Hal and/or Sinestro just flat out teleport interstellar distances during Emerald Dawn, which is about as rookie as Hal gets.

[Rightoya]

Comics being written such that characters conveniently don't remember the full extent of things they could do/the abilities of a thing they are using have in order for there to be a fight doesn't actually need an "explanation" more than them being, induced, if you will, to be comparatively stupid, for the sake of the plot. As though we have a term for that here.

So 95% of all the random GLs never using that ability at all, does not count as prove for that not being a basic ability?

A GL ring, barring times like "Kyle's ring specifically worked differently" during the era he was the only GL, is a tool that can do various things at various scales of effect, so long as the wielder of that tool has sufficient willpower and energy to do them. The inability of someone to do a particular thing the ring can do is reflective of nothing more than their personal willpower to do it with and or the energy the ring has at the time. Unless they're specifically deficient at ring using in some way.

And how do we calculate the necessary willpower and amount of willpower the GLs have at their disposal?

Unless Jessica is portrayed as intentionally deficient as a ring wielder, or at least comparatively deficient (and apparently she is? dunno), then crap a ring can be used to do should be in her wheelhouse fine.

The most that can be said is that a ring wielder with greater will can do crap a ring wielder with comparatively less cannot. But even that's more reflected in things like higher end Rayner style cosmic nonsenses.

I don't even remember seeing that after flashpoint at all, so are we rly assuming now that Rebirth Jessica(who is still an unexperienced Lantern, even after improving quite a bit) can somehow use abilities just a few pre-52 Lanterns have actually ever shown?

And why do i get the strong feeling of a big double standard again, i can't remember a single thread where people were discussing if the opposite character can do something to protect themselves from the soul hax of WW's lasso, Zeus lightning or other such things(would be especially interessting with Supes, where i also don't remember many vibrating debates though)?

[Rightoya]

Well, even assuming that there were no extenuating circumstances allowing her to do that, or that the Netherworld can be accessed from anywhere, or that she can find Khazan from the space/dimensional boonies, I'd imagine that being in the heart of a sun or having her molecules be spontaneously annihilated in a way that should ignore durability via antimatter would at least leave her in a less than ideal condition, and wouldn't actually prevent her from being dimension dumped again, especially if the GL had time to get the Ring's computer to auto-attack if/when she comes back.

The Netherworld is a different dimension and the curcumstances were that she is actually empowered by some Gods(which includes Hermes, who had traveling of any kinds as main function besides speed), so i don't see why not. Being in the heart of the sun for a very short time should be managable, for molecular shenanigans has pre-52 actually also some pretty wacky feats with her lasso(i don't think that would be enough for an ideal condition though) but i anyways highly doubt Jessica could even send her into the antimatter dimension at all.

For the same reason that most of Wonder Woman's, Superman's, and Flash's Rogues Gallery are able to give their respective heroes life and death battles despite having no superspeed of note: Plot Induced Stupidity.

WW, Supes and Flash are in these instances very rarely bloodlusted and actually showed that speed/abilities already though.

[The Chou Lives]

GL Will Power, Toto have to have crazy wil Power to do. Ollie for example in comics, strong willed dude. But with the ring it gave him so much trouble to conjure one damn green lantern arrow.

And Quinn has damn goodvwill power ( had to, in surviving being a naturalist That one time.)

And I think a default green power set is flight, auto shields and energy beams.

Jessica though in my memory was never exotic with it.

[The Drunkard Kid]

The Netherworld is a different dimension and the curcumstances were that she is actually empowered by some Gods(which includes Hermes, who had traveling of any kinds as main function besides speed), so i don't see why not. Being in the heart of the sun for a very short time should be managable, for molecular shenanigans has pre-52 actually also some pretty wacky feats with her lasso(i don't think that would be enough for an ideal condition though) but i anyways highly doubt Jessica could even send her into the antimatter dimension at all.




WW, Supes and Flash are in these instances very rarely bloodlusted and actually showed that speed/abilities already though.

The teleportation and wormhole abilities are pretty bog standard, since the ring can do at least the wormhole by itself without any input from the user (actually, didn't the ring teleport Hal to a dying Abin Sur by itself when it first found him)? As for the Antimatter universe, that *should* be something h she is aware of as that's where Qward, home base of the anti-GL Sinestro Corps is located and I'm pretty sure that both Corps are able to enter one another's universe at will. OTOH, I'm not sure how consistent DC is about Matter/Antimatter interactions resulting in the spontaneous and extremely explosive annihilation of both masses.

Still, assuming that the GL can withstand WW's attack long enough to teleport Diana away, and that Diana can both survive her new situation long enough to enter the Netherworld *and* be able to find her way back to the arena, that would mean that she's now facing a GL that has had time to put up some active defenses and tell the ring to fire off attacks that can hit other space sectors in real time the moment that she gets within range (or teleport her again).

As for not using superspeed most of the time because they aren't being boodlusted at the time, that's generally irrelevant to PIS since that same speed advantage could have allowed them to stop threats that were endangering civilians or property, which they would probably consider more pressing than bloodlust due to their respective heroic temperments. And of course, that's not taking into account things like Superman killing and being killed by Doomsday in a fight that caused tons of property damage and civilian casualties despite Doomsday not showing anywhere near comparable superspeed and normal humans being able to follow the fight just fine.

[Slade1]

Got an issue number? It's rare I miss a Kyle feat.

My comics are 500 miles away so let me see if I can google it.

[Slade1]

It was Justice Leagues # 1 from 2001. It was the one with the Advance Man.

[Pendaran]

So 95% of all the random GLs never using that ability at all, does not count as prove for that not being a basic ability?




And how do we calculate the necessary willpower and amount of willpower the GLs have at their disposal?



I don't even remember seeing that after flashpoint at all, so are we rly assuming now that Rebirth Jessica(who is still an unexperienced Lantern, even after improving quite a bit) can somehow use abilities just a few pre-52 Lanterns have actually ever shown?

And why do i get the strong feeling of a big double standard again, i can't remember a single thread where people were discussing if the opposite character can do something to protect themselves from the soul hax of WW's lasso, Zeus lightning or other such things(would be especially interessting with Supes, where i also don't remember many vibrating debates though)?

You get the strong feeling of a big double standard because that is part of your go to whenever Wonder Woman comes up at this point, seemingly. My own posts include "ring autoshields should not hold up to being blitzed by Wonder Woman", and "can the ring even actually teleport people" and yet "double standards!", maybe consider you are in at a point where that is part of a reply to someone saying in this thread that Wonder Woman would win.

As for teleporting people or the like? If something is shown as a basic thing someone with a ring does that doesn't especially tax them to do, then it's pretty comfortable to view that as a basic thing a ring can do. Other people with a ring not doing it, unless they're incompetent, would be PIS, given that the ring is a tool. However, as per my asking a question in a follow up, as though I was seriously asking it for wanting and answer and not engaged in some board bias conspiracy against Wonder Woman, teleportation in the way it is being suggested as a move does not seem viable. You even have other posters noting "it wouldn't really be viable" in reply to said question and yet, you still say "why do I get the strong feeling of a big double standard again". There's one person at this point still arguing for her being teleported as a move. Yeah, you're right, there are some huge double standards here.


It mostly makes you come off like someone who has a problem with the idea of anyone suggesting there was even a chance Wonder Woman might not win in some way, to the point that every post not yours has to be from some biased hate of the character.

Just seriously:

I don't even remember seeing that after flashpoint at all, so are we rly assuming now that Rebirth Jessica(who is still an unexperienced Lantern, even after improving quite a bit) can somehow use abilities just a few pre-52 Lanterns have actually ever shown?

Read one post down from the one you replied to that I posted, because no, we're not really assuming that, unless you're saying that when I asked as a general question to the thread "can the ring even do that in the first place", I wasn't actually asking that. You're certainly selectively ignoring a variety of the posts in this thread to say people are, but that's you. The post you are quoting is me replying to that your argument against teleportation boiled down to PIS counting for everyone but Wonder Woman. It's as though that's why I followed that up with "better arguments would be..." and included in them asking if the ring can even do that in the first place, as opposed to your "the ring can't even do that because the following people didn't", which again, that's not especially different from saying PIS on for Lanterns, off for everyone else.

WW, Supes and Flash are in these instances very rarely bloodlusted and actually showed that speed/abilities already though.

The entire basic principle of how characters are weighed here is that people will both actually remember what their powers are and not forget to use them, with allowances for a particular showing being well outside the capacity of those powers, even at their more consistently higher end.

As for "soul hax" or "Zeus lightning" or what have you? Possibly I'm not bothering with them because there's no need to have to get any more fancy than "Wonder Woman hits Jessica a lot at superspeed" to note why I think she'd take it.

[Pendaran]

The teleportation and wormhole abilities are pretty bog standard, since the ring can do at least the wormhole by itself without any input from the user (actually, didn't the ring teleport Hal to a dying Abin Sur by itself when it first found him)? As for the Antimatter universe, that *should* be something h she is aware of as that's where Qward, home base of the anti-GL Sinestro Corps is located and I'm pretty sure that both Corps are able to enter one another's universe at will. OTOH, I'm not sure how consistent DC is about Matter/Antimatter interactions resulting in the spontaneous and extremely explosive annihilation of both masses.

Still, assuming that the GL can withstand WW's attack long enough to teleport Diana away, and that Diana can both survive her new situation long enough to enter the Netherworld *and* be able to find her way back to the arena, that would mean that she's now facing a GL that has had time to put up some active defenses and tell the ring to fire off attacks that can hit other space sectors in real time the moment that she gets within range (or teleport her again).

As for not using superspeed most of the time because they aren't being boodlusted at the time, that's generally irrelevant to PIS since that same speed advantage could have allowed them to stop threats that were endangering civilians or property, which they would probably consider more pressing than bloodlust due to their respective heroic temperments. And of course, that's not taking into account things like Superman killing and being killed by Doomsday in a fight that caused tons of property damage and civilian casualties despite Doomsday not showing anywhere near comparable superspeed and normal humans being able to follow the fight just fine.

So this came up with a completely different character, but opening a wormhole or portal is not the same as teleporting someone, considering you then have to actually get them into said wormhole or portal. Otherwise, if even Captain Morgan is noting that the rings can't do port someone into the sun moves anymore/even in the first place, it seems like a pretty moot effort to keep advancing it.

[Pendaran]

Anyway, that stuff aside...

I would feel that even if rebirth/new 52 Wonder Woman is only high end hypersonic in her superspeed reaction time, that is a loooot of attacks to rain down on Jessica considering her utter lack of speed. It makes it a problem as far as her doing some other esoteric move.

I suppose there's "Sinestro's autoshields bounced an exploding planet", but that feels a bit beyond even high end to spot to Jessica as far as "one of the greatest ring wielders to ever bear a ring had his high end ring crap include this", compared to more basic uses.

That also itself generally feels a bit beyond even high end for the post flashpoint lanterns.