Red Hood: Outlaw #27 Preview / Discussion

[Zaresh]

Ok, now I've got to the News part.

Jason's whole pose in the page was.... Well, you can see how much those few words shocked him. Wouldn't have been surprised had he started to cry. His right hand over his mug, specially, speaks a lot about his body reaction to the news.

From that page on, I changed a lot how I saw Bruce between my first and second reads. But first things first: Jason's reaction, for me, feels genuine. He first feel shocked, then confused, then angered, then hurt. And in the end? He tries to to rationalize the info Bruce is serving. He is still sad, and hurt, and definitely resigned; he sounds pessimistic, but he has reasons to be so. This is depressive Jason, and the reason he shouldn't be left alone. But we also see hopeful Jason, genre savvy Jason, even if for Bruce his thoughts probably sound more like denial. It's funny how Jason keeps swinging between hope and hopelessness. A pessimistic optimist, which is why he usually expect bad things to happen, the worst things to happen, but he also tries to not give up so strongly. I can connect with that feel so much.

Besides that, as I mentioned, I think Jason goes the calm, logical route because how much he feels he messed up after reading Willis' letters.

Back to Bruce. Oh, did I have a problem with Bruce here in my first time. I thought he was being manipulative, cold, calculating Jason's reaction, fishing for his thoughts--making Jason talk for assessing how he should control him, throwing him small pity bones as if he were a wild, hurt animal he wanted to pacify, always maintaining a prudential distance. But in my second read I realized that Bruce was actually trying to be a good parent here. He seemed more worried about Jason's mind than wary of his potential violent reaction and meltdown. He felts concerned about Jason's reasoning regarding the risks of the life of a vigilante. And he's not calculating Jason's reaction and assessing him before leaving the diner: he's probably thinking about how much Jason can deal with without breaking, he sees how insightful Jason can be. He's looking at Jason under a new light, even if he's still worried. Or, well, I think Bruce is thinking like that. I would prefer to think he is, rather than my previous conjecture.

I had a similar change of perspective with Bruce in the last part outside. I'm not going into detail there, but well, I felt that lie about not hating him and being there for each other was another bone he throw to Jason for cold, calculated reassurance, but as cheap as it may sound to native speakers, thanks to my second read, I think it was, again, a genuine gest, out of worry, and rudeness and an attempt to show Jason that he didn't think of him as an outsider, let alone hating him. Same for the last panel of Bruce in the car looking back: he's probably worried, and thinking about how to assist Jason and assure that he doesn't lost himself /hence how we get Kate in a few issues, probably).

Some other bits from that scene in the outside: Jason really needs to feel himself loved. All those comments about people hating him are clearly a way to provoke a reassuring reaction (or a confirmation that he is hatted otherwise). At least, under Lobdell's writing is like that, and I think it's pretty in character. Another bit about Jason in that part: how he not only puts his own problems down and pushes himself forward them, but how the first thing he does afterwards is worrying about how hard coming to deliver the news had to be for Bruce. Damn, isn't Jason a good person? It hurts that he punishes himself into being a bad guy (because it's necessary and all that). Caring about others foremost oneself is a trait for many bats; but I think it's more touching in Jason's case, for some reason.

More bits. The photo in Roy's contact profile. I can see Roy himself choosing it. I don't know it that's a lot in character, but it fits what I know about him. Also, it's interesting that we don't get to see if Jason deletes the contact or not. As someone who is willing to move on, he should: he doesn't need the contact. If Roy's back, he will call Jason. And if Jason has moved on, he will not call Roy's voice mail for anything. Now then, if he doesn't delete the contact, then it speaks of how he's not doing so good about Roy's death. It could be that, and he will finally lash out in a few issues just in time for Artemis and Bizarro to arrive and help him to put himself together. We will see.

Not much more to say about Appleton that hasn't been already said.

In the end, for a transitional issue that had to tackle a lot of stuff that came from other issues in even other books, with all the limitations that worked against the chance of getting a more natural outcome for the characters previous story, it was smart. Clearly, they couldn't stop an arc that it's still starting, neither they could let Jason take a prominent role in HiC. Or letting Bruce start a new pursue after Jason, dropping his own story in his book aside. They could have used another character instead Bruce (Ollie, Donna, Alfred, Tim, Barbara...), but it wouldn't have been so juicy, I think. And wouldn't have shown us Jason's hiding insides and how much he has matured like this.

And this is all I had to say. Hope it's not too boring.

[G-Potion]

So here arrives Bruce with his charming, collected persona. As himself. And the first reaction Jason has is... a rather funny comment that days that he's actually wary, or even scared, of him. I liked that touch. The whole page (and the one that follows) is very, tense. Jason is distrustful and eyeing Bruce all the time. Bruce is stark and only delivers orders. You can see they both are assessing each other. Jason does voice some of what he's thinking, with a noticeable sarcastic tone, and he is really a bit confused about Bruce presence, I would say, wondering the whys. My first impression about Bruce, was that he was so distant, stark and calculating because he distrust Jason and thinks he's an unstable danger he needs to tame somehow. On a second thought, though, I realized that more that that, Bruce is probably thinking about how he will deliver the news to Roy without hurting him more. He definitely seems lost in thought, more than calculating, thinking about all that has happened to Jason and also to himself (which includes how much he has failed lately, with the mess in Sanctuary, the mess with Freeze, the stuff with Jason after Penguin, the mess with Dick... It all should give him some perspective).

My thought too. And this is the guy that isn't known for expressing himself well. I think there's something conflicting about what people want to see. We all agree that Bruce and Jason shouldn't make up too soon. But they really didn't. Had they talked about #25 more than they did, or had Bruce apologized, they would have made up in one issue. It's pretty admirable that Bruce is trying to do the kind thing for Jason, as he doesn't look at #25 the same way most of us do and is probably still feeling betrayed by Jason's breaking promise. The action on his side might be flawed or lacking from our perspectives but hey, that's Bruce. I guess the tragedy here is as Dark said, they understand each other and just kind of accept it, while we can't.

The thing is, Jason replies with Bruce's own words, not looking at Bruce in a very transparent effort to avoid Bruce eyes on his own gesture; and here Jason, with that same sentence Bruce already used, probably means "I did try to kill Penguin. Why I didn't kill him? Why I did try to kill him? I did wrong but it's what I wanted to do". In my first read, I took it like Jason being frustrated with himself because he couldn't deliver the deadly shoot in the end, because his own actions (last second remorse? Bad luck or bad aiming doesn't look believable at all). But on my second read, I was wondering if Jason was maybe wondering why he even tried to kill the Penguin to begin with, what was wrong with him, because he clearly messed up the whole situation, and was helping anyone, especially not his team mates, doing so. He messed up, big time, and he's remorseful about it. So mayne there is a little of that too. And guilt at being seen under that criminal, wrong light in Bruce eyes. And we know he puts a lot of fçade when he cries out he doesn't care and he's doing the right thing.

That's too. Jason's firing back at Bruce about "public service" was half hearted at best. Because he did screw up. For his part, Jason's refusal to look at Bruce as he echoed his words also didn't help in making Bruce understand more. His own regret as you pointed out aside, again it shows that these guys are so sure of their understanding of the other that they don't think explantions are needed or would even help with anything.

In the end, the whole Killing-Penguin-and-Being-Beaten is not resolved at all: it's stale, because Jason waits not more to push his own problems forward, ignoring them, as he does with a lot of is other issues. And Bruce, of course, doesn't delve in either (it's understable that Lobdell doesn't go further with this issue because he needs to deal with the consequences of HiC in this issue really. But He had to at least adrees it somehow, so we got that: an acknowledgement of the current conflict between both that has to be calm because he cannot afford Jason to lose it and derail his own ongoing story). He finally makes his mind and delivers the news in an aseptic way.

YES to all of this.

[G-Potion]

I already saw a number of people claiming that what Bruce did here is abusive parenting.

[G-Potion]

I actually like the hug. It's an impulsive decision by Jason. You can even see how he throws his bag away. I think that's the second time Jason initiates a hug with Bruce. The first time was in Red Hood/Arsenal when Bruce wasn't really Bruce. But Bruce can still remember that, or?

The dialog on the next page is a little bit cringy and I just don't like the way Bruce speaks. But his look in the last panel speaks volumes. He's definitely keeping an eye on Jason.

I like that it's Jason who initiated it as well. He has always been keen to kindness done for him it makes me tear up.

I agree that line sound a bit too much. Bruce is trying hard I guess. On that note, I'd say that Woods succeeded in delivering emotions and expressions, and unsaid things properly conveyed.

[Zaresh]

I already saw a number of people claiming that what Bruce did here is abusive parenting.

I can see how, because he came across as a manipulative almost abusive parent my first time. How wrong I was, just because I wasn't paying proper attention to the art and taking the context into account.

[magpieM]

I already saw a number of people claiming that what Bruce did here is abusive parenting.

"You are never coming back to Gotham. Not even to Arkham" --> Well this is cruel. Being Batman/Bruce Wayne doesn't mean he has the right to exile someone forever. Gotham is Jason's home, too. It's his birthplace.

I haven't read any comments in other places so I don't know what they are complaining. But I agree with most of what you guys commented here.

[G-Potion]

"You are never coming back to Gotham. Not even to Arkham" --> Well this is cruel. Being Batman/Bruce Wayne doesn't mean he has the right to excile someone forever. Gotham is Jason's home, too. It's his birthplace.

I haven't read any comments in other places so I don't know what they are complaining. But I agree with most of what you guys commented here.

Well yeah it is cruel and Jason was tearing up hearing that. But I don't think it counts as "here" because that has been an underlying warning since Rebirth. On the other hand, it saves Bruce from having to further treat Jason the way he would have any rogue, hence the Arkham comment. So at least there's a compromise here I think.

[JasonTodd428]

Well yeah it is cruel and Jason was tearing up hearing that. But I don't think it counts as "here" because that has been an underlying warning since Rebirth. On the other hand, it saves Bruce from having to further treat Jason the way he would have any rogue, hence the Arkham comment. So at least there's a compromise here I think.

A compromise sure and a bit of a hand-wavy apology as well perhaps. I still maintain however that an honest-to-God apology from Bruce for the asshat way he treated Jason would have been a stronger foundation for their future relationship whatever that might be than what happened here. I wouldn't want him to accept the apology right now of course because he shouldn't but I do think it would be good for his emotional well-being later on if it was handled now rather than later.

[G-Potion]

A compromise sure and a bit of a hand-wavy apology as well perhaps. I still maintain however that an honest-to-God apology from Bruce for the asshat way he treated Jason would have been a stronger foundation for their future relationship whatever that might be than what happened here. I wouldn't want him to accept the apology right now of course because he shouldn't but I do think it would be good for his emotional well-being later on if it was handled now rather than later.

I would love for Bruce to someday realize that he could have been more gentle to Jason. But as of right now, I don't think Bruce thinks he was wrong and needs to apologize. He's angry at Jason but he's putting that aside to personally deliver the news because he still loves Jason and understands how it feels facing a loved one's death. The Arkham comment doesn't feel like saying sorry to me. It's just so they can't hurt each other any more.

Even Jason doesn't seem to hold it against Bruce as much as we do because he likely realized shooting Penguin was a mistake, stemming from his emotional outburst and resulting in his loss of everything; moreover the way he sees Bruce, himself, their relationship, it's more likely that he would either take the blame himself like he does everything else or he just accepts that's how it is between them.

That said, I really hope after this exchange - Bruce looks surprised at Jason's words and then really worried for him - he would consider trying to understand Jason a bit more. Then he can apologize.

[magpieM]

I see why he wouldn't apologize. But I'm wondering why Bruce didn't even try to find out what had happend that caused Jason to shoot Penguin. It's a perfect chance to sit down and have some 'patient' and 'civil' conversations about it before he finally delivered the sad news about Roy. He missed this chance forever. When could he find and talk with Jason about it again?

Penguin was doing his usual crime business. Why would Jason suddenly 'snapped' after being following the rule for such a long time? Was there anything particular behind his action? I'm thinking maybe our 'Greatest Detective' just really doesn't care. You intended to kill Penguin. Game over. You got a life sentence: Being exiled from home forever.

[G-Potion]

I see why he wouldn't apologize. But I'm wondering why Bruce didn't even try to find out what had happend that caused Jason to shoot Penguin. It's a perfect chance to sit down and have some 'patient' and 'civil' conversations about it before he finally delivered the sad news about Roy. He missed this chance forever. When could he find and talk with Jason about it again?

Penguin was doing his usual crime business. Why would Jason suddenly 'snapped' after being following the rule for such a long time? Was there anything particular behind his action? I'm thinking maybe our 'Greatest Detective' just really doesn't care. You intended to kill Penguin. Game over. You got a life sentence: Being exiled from home forever.

To be fair, Jason doesn't seem inclined to tell him either. And it might just make it worse if he did because he shot Penguin for the wrong reason. :/

[magpieM]

To be fair, Jason doesn't seem inclined to tell him either. And it might just make it worse if he did because he shot Penguin for the wrong reason. :/

Actually that's more telling if he could have noticed that Jason dodged the question. Why wouldn't Jason just simply explain it as a matter of fact? Or maybe he did notice that.

If I were him, I would go back and interrogate every single one at the scene that day to see if anyone of them overheard anything. If he could find some key words like 'father', he's close to the truth. But I bet Bruce won't find out before Willis approaches his son.

[Vinsanity]

Yeah.... Bruce definitely planted a tracker during the Hug, right? It seems like Bruce, especially the look he gave when they went separate ways

Wouldn't be surprised and explains Bruce's look.

Why is Red Hood written so well compared to other Bat Fam books? Lobdell always kills it.

[Rise]

Some of you seem to still underestimate the impact of Willis' letters on Jason and how much they affected him. There's no comparison between this and Roy's death since the former is about how Jason's life would have been different if Penguin didn't do what he did (he literally destroyed his family) and how something he believed his entire life turned out not to be true (the fact that his father actually love him). Jason crying after reading the letters show how much it shock and affected him since he rarely ever cry.

Jason is definitely upest and sad over Roy, but there's nothing he can do about it. Roy didn't die in RHATO for Lobdell to have to deal with it and having Jason moping over it, he died in a book that going to run for nine months. Instead of having Jason throwing a meaningless words of revange that he could never lived up to, Lobdell decided to show Jason's growth which a lot of people were worried that the solo arc going to regress him.

[Rise]

hence how we get Kate in a few issues, probably

Yeah, I suspect that Kate showing up is because of Bruce. He seemed to be really worried about Jason in this issue and Woods already shared a pic of Batman from the upcoming issues which could be a flashback of him talking to Kate.

If this is the case, then I'm cool with her showing up and I hope they have better interactions than they did before.