Red Hood: Outlaw #27 Preview / Discussion

[Aahz]

I'm wondering when Lobdell will tackle all the open plot points from before the first two years of the run (Willis, Ma Gunn, his problems with the All-Blades ...).

I'm also not that happy about Kate's appearance, I would like to finally get a solo story for him, without having guest characters show up every other issue.

[kaimaciel]

I can't say I'm very excited about Kate either. In the main continuity, she has done nothing but insult and fight him so far. I know she's a big deal in the alternate universes, but honestly, the idea that all Jason needs to heal is a "mommy" (see Mother Panic) is something that I don't agree. It infantilizes the character.

[RedBird]

Well yeah it is cruel and Jason was tearing up hearing that. But I don't think it counts as "here" because that has been an underlying warning since Rebirth. On the other hand, it saves Bruce from having to further treat Jason the way he would have any rogue, hence the Arkham comment. So at least there's a compromise here I think.

Is that really a compromise though? Penguin is fine, their deal was technically never broken in the first place. I don't think I see Bruce saying 'don't worry, you won't be going to Arkham for hurting/grazing the Penguin' as much of a compromise honestly.

A compromise sure and a bit of a hand-wavy apology as well perhaps. I still maintain however that an honest-to-God apology from Bruce for the asshat way he treated Jason would have been a stronger foundation for their future relationship whatever that might be than what happened here. I wouldn't want him to accept the apology right now of course because he shouldn't but I do think it would be good for his emotional well-being later on if it was handled now rather than later.

Bruce finding Jason and breaking the news about Roy was a nice gesture, and even that gesture is completely appreciated by Jason, hence the hug he initiates and the statement he clearly makes. But considering as you say, Bruce makes no attempt at an apology (which to be fair, I personally didn't expect from him anyways) or even just an admission of an overreaction on his part. Neither seem to regret their actions, but whilst Jason admits his guilt, Bruce kinda goes one step too far in the other direction for my tastes by 'softening' his own behavior in #25. Turning it completely around and fully upon Jason, as him just needing 'an occasional kick in the ass', which I suppose was a nicer way of saying, beating you senseless till you're unable to walk and unconscious and then dragging you to Arkham or Prison. And, no, of course I don't actually have any expectations of any characters airing out their dirty laundry as blatantly as that, but neither was I expecting the onus of that conflict so quickly to be placed on one character solely, especially after acknowledging that the source of that conflict (Penguins death) was in other words, exaggerated. Consider, understanding how delicate Jason might be in this moment, facing the man that beat him and banished him from his home and now just having revealed that his best friend is dead, the nicest and most unconditional thing Bruce has to say in this issue was, 'I don't hate you'. That is setting the bar pretty freakin low, like 6 feet below.

Again though, I don't even detest this on it's own, this dialogue and issue would just be so much better and genuinely more heartwarming if it wasn't within the context of #25. The intense drama and conflict within #25 is made pointless with #27, and the reconciliation in #27 is overshadowed by the brutality of their fallout in #25. In my mind, as good as these issues are separately, they cancel each other out, in terms of their emotional impact. There's a lot of good in #27 but I'm still left feeling mixed thanks to these issues, I appreciate the portrayal of Jasons maturity, I really do, but I'm hoping Lobdell has more to say on this relationship, cause this response, especially from Bruces end, just ain't cuttin it for me.

[Aioros22]

Sooner or later they will have to deal with the Penguin issue and whether Jason actually wanted to kill him or not and if so, what miraculous save Penguin had. It suspends the narrative real thin when an expert marskman fails to kill someone that is just right in front of you.

I realize this is likely less on Loedbell and more on King who wanted to use the bird right away but I`d still like them to extrapolate on that.

[RedBird]

Sooner or later they will have to deal with the Penguin issue and whether Jason actually wanted to kill him or not and if so, what miraculous save Penguin had. It suspends the narrative real thin when an expert marskman fails to kill someone that is just right in front of you.

I realize this is likely less on Loedbell and more on King who wanted to use the bird right away but I`d still like them to extrapolate on that.

The only extrapolation I assume will be coming from King, IF he even decides to address it. And Hey welcome back

[G-Potion]

Is that really a compromise though? Penguin is fine, their deal was technically never broken in the first place. I don't think I see Bruce saying 'don't worry, you won't be going to Arkham for hurting/grazing the Penguin' as much of a compromise honestly.

I think it is because whether Penguin lives or dies, Jason already decided to go back to his old ways, and neither he nor Bruce wants another face-off. As much as it hurts Jason to hear that he's exiled, I think he'd agree it's for the best.

@Aioros22: Now he's back.

[Aioros22]

Waiting on King, oh you RedBird you

[Rise]

I honestly don't think Lobdell rushing for the reunion is because of King and him wanting to use Penguin. I think Lobdell wanted it to happen because he didn't want to break them up in the first place.

If you are waiting for Batman to admit his fault, you are wasting your time. I already said before that Batman never face any consequences for his actions and Lobdell doesn't even seem to think what Batman did was super terrible either from his interviews.

Also, Jason doesn't think at all that what he did to penguin was wrong. He only regret the way he handled it and the impact it had.

[RedBird]

If you are waiting for Batman to admit his fault, you are wasting your time. I already said before that Batman never face any consequences for his actions and Lobdell doesn't even seem to think what Batman did was super terrible either from his interviews.

Are you perhaps referring to my statement? Cause like I mentioned, I didn't expect an apology or for Bruce to face the consequences. Bruce won't admit being at fault sure, but I just wish Bruce also didn't double down and reverse the onus completely onto Jason, making his part in the conflict 'softer' by implying it was for Jasons own good. I could have done without that to be honest, especially when it was said in a moment that I assume was meant to be something to uplift Jason and reassure him.

[RedBird]

I honestly don't think Lobdell rushing for the reunion is because of King and him wanting to use Penguin. I think Lobdell wanted it to happen because he didn't want to break them up in the first place.

If that's true it just makes me wonder though, what was Lobdell planning for this series if the whole fight and separation was editorial mandate.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

You guys can disagree and dislike what happened and yeah, it was a bit OoC because it was rushed to set the new Status Quo in time for a milestone issue, but ultimately, Bruce simply made good of his word. And Jason was fully aware of the consequences that his actions would bring. Both men made their choices and both of them are standing up to them. So no, there is no reason to expect an apology. And going by Jason's actions during these issues, he doesn't expect any. Furthermore, it seems the reason Jason got back to his old ways is not Bruce, but losing Artemis and Bizarro.

Ironically, just like a real parent, Bruce's anger towards Jason is an clear sign he does care about Jason. If he didn't care he wouldn't be upset, but since he cares, he truly expected Jason to hold up his promise, that makes all more disappointing that Jason didn't.

Oh and you guys do remember that Lobdell has already said Jason will be back on Gotham, right?

[RedBird]

Oh and you guys do remember that Lobdell has already said Jason will be back on Gotham, right?

Isn't he already? I thought he was meeting Damian in Gotham in TT, or did I misinterpret their location?

[Zaresh]

Waiting on King, oh you RedBird you

Hope is the last thing to go. The last, last, lastest thing.

[RedBird]

Waiting on King

A foolish choice

[Rise]

It wasn't about you in particular, RedBird.

And I think Lobdell might have been planning to expand the team which why he introduced Creeper and had the "what if" part in issue 25 before the order from above come about Jason going solo (which I'm personally not unhappy about and think it was a good idea).

The fight was probably done as excuse to get Jason out of gotham and part of breaking Batman from his family since darkness and loneliness are his only friends after all.