Wonder Women #56 (Witching Hour 2/5)

[Natamaxxx]

I’m wondering when diana and circe became civil towards one another; or is hecate replacing circe?

I remember a story in Trinity where Diana saved Circe's life. I don't know if anythings happened between them since , but I figured that resulted in an uneasy (and most definitely temporary) truce between the two.

[kjn]

Yeah, I don't see it that way. Diana is definitely a "take action" kind of person, but she was literally raised on a magical island, so I don't see why dealing with a magical problem would suddenly make her unsure of herself.

Not "a magical problem", rather this magical problem, and where she suddenly has reason to doubt her own memories or experiences.

She wouldn't deliberately lie to the Justice League (a confusing story choice, considering Hecate mind wiped the League five minutes later) & she would stop and consider what someone like Zatanna might have to say, especially with Circe standing there practically foaming at the mouth for the chance to access Hecate's power. And she definitely wouldn't accept Circe's help without first verifying that she didn't have an ulterior motive. I will buy that being used by an "angry vengeful god" would piss her off, but it shouldn't make her stupid. All this is just giving me shades of Meredith Finch... Plus the bit with the unicorn was just ridiculous. Doesn't Diana have some sort of power to commune with animals or something like that? I just don't see her viciously kidnapping anything or anyone as some sort of sacrifice.

I think the obfuscation/omission/lie to the Justice League was more to build up the tension within Diana and between Zatanna and Diana than anything else, and make clear in more than one way that the members of Justice League Dark were on their own. More of a character than plot moment.

You're right about Tynion forgetting Diana's ability to commune with animals, but I also think that there is a discussion or two that Tynion omitted from the narrative. I'm pretty sure Diana was confident in her ability to approach Circe directly and receive help from her; it was rather Zatanna and Constantine who thought they needed offerings and sacrifices. Which Circe mentioned was more a thing to keep people from bothering her, and never applied to Diana.

I think Diana's and Zatanna's approaches and relation to magic are fundamentally different, even if both see it as dangerous and has a deep personal relation to it. I have a feeling that the resolution to the arc will require them to reach some form of synthesis of their views, even if they probably always will view magic from different vantage points.

(It's also interesting how this issue, talky as it is, mirrors the movie, with Zatanna taking Steve's role of telling Diana no and calling for planning before action.)

[Natamaxxx]

Not "a magical problem", rather this magical problem, and where she suddenly has reason to doubt her own memories or experiences.



I think the obfuscation/omission/lie to the Justice League was more to build up the tension within Diana and between Zatanna and Diana than anything else, and make clear in more than one way that the members of Justice League Dark were on their own. More of a character than plot moment.

You're right about Tynion forgetting Diana's ability to commune with animals, but I also think that there is a discussion or two that Tynion omitted from the narrative. I'm pretty sure Diana was confident in her ability to approach Circe directly and receive help from her; it was rather Zatanna and Constantine who thought they needed offerings and sacrifices. Which Circe mentioned was more a thing to keep people from bothering her, and never applied to Diana.

I think Diana's and Zatanna's approaches and relation to magic are fundamentally different, even if both see it as dangerous and has a deep personal relation to it. I have a feeling that the resolution to the arc will require them to reach some form of synthesis of their views, even if they probably always will view magic from different vantage points.

(It's also interesting how this issue, talky as it is, mirrors the movie, with Zatanna taking Steve's role of telling Diana no and calling for planning before action.)

Tomato/tomahto, I guess, lol.

Be it this or that magical problem, I still don't see how it can make Diana so unsure of herself, the she would forget that above all else, she is a leader and a problem solver & suddenly lash out at other teammates. This new power is certainly terrifying, but this isn't how Wonder Woman deals with her fears. Writing her this way just to create some tension between her and Zatanna is definitely a plot driven decision. Diana and Zatanna could certainly have a difference of opinion on how to deal with this problem and that in of itself can create some tension. She also wouldn't just blindly hand herself over to Circe without at least saying "Hey - hold my lasso and tell me what you know about all this and what your intentions are". I'm willing to wager that somewhere down the line - after Hecate's been defeated, Circe will betray everyone and make a play for the power within Diana for herself. You would have to write Diana is some ditz not to see that coming a mile away!

And that thing with the poor unicorn - How many blanks should the reader fill in for the writer in order to make the story work..?

[kjn]

Be it this or that magical problem, I still don't see how it can make Diana so unsure of herself, the she would forget that above all else, she is a leader and a problem solver & suddenly lash out at other teammates. This new power is certainly terrifying, but this isn't how Wonder Woman deals with her fears.

I view it the other way around: the way she acts out of character shows how rattled she is by the events. It is even discussed on page 10 of JLD 2.

Writing her this way just to create some tension between her and Zatanna is definitely a plot driven decision. Diana and Zatanna could certainly have a difference of opinion on how to deal with this problem and that in of itself can create some tension. She also wouldn't just blindly hand herself over to Circe without at least saying "Hey - hold my lasso and tell me what you know about all this and what your intentions are". I'm willing to wager that somewhere down the line - after Hecate's been defeated, Circe will betray everyone and make a play for the power within Diana for herself. You would have to write Diana is some ditz not to see that coming a mile away!

And that thing with the poor unicorn - How many blanks should the reader fill in for the writer in order to make the story work..?

My impression is that Diana is quite careful about using the lasso, maybe especially now that she is out of balance and unsure of herself. Also, given my own knowledge of mythology, my impression of Circe as a baddie is that it's not that fitting with how she was presented in antiquity, or how Diana would view her. More than anyone else in the DCU, Diana trusts people beyond reason. That's how she can achieve things beyond hope. (Paraphrased from Lois Bujold in the wonderful novel A Civil Campaign.)

As for the poor unicorn, yes, it was a weak point in the plot. I think it was included mostly as a way for Diana to reminisce about her youth as a source for later quips from Circe and Deadman. Otherwise I'm used to interpolating stuff in fiction, and I'm not sure a new reader would think all that much about the unicorn.

[Sacred Knight]

I love that both of Circe’s looks are canon. That’s exactly what I was hoping they’d do.

They got it backwards. The "theatrical" look as she put it, in other words the actual costume, should be the true look, and that normal appearance the mask. Nothing about gods, nor any superhero/villain should be normal on the reg, especially their appearance. But I do agree its nice that they're both canon. Again, the explanation is just totally backwards for my taste as a fan of comics and all that come with it, including flashy costumes.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

It was an okay issue and It was nice to see Manitou Dawn. Im just going to drop Justice League Dark though because I kinda struggle to enjoy it and its already looking like the books just a continuation of the previous Justice League Dark with Deadman popping up, giving us half of the original JLD's cast.

[Dr. Poison]

It was an okay issue and It was nice to see Manitou Dawn. Im just going to drop Justice League Dark though because I kinda struggle to enjoy it and its already looking like the books just a continuation of the previous Justice League Dark with Deadman popping up, giving us half of the original JLD's cast.

What was so bad about the previous JLDark? I didn't like it at first but once Lemire took over the book(and cast) were awesome. I haven't read this issue. Have Constantine and Deadman officially joined the team?

[Fuzzy Mittens]

What was so bad about the previous JLDark? I didn't like it at first but once Lemire took over the book(and cast) were awesome. I haven't read this issue. Have Constantine and Deadman officially joined the team?

There was nothing wrong with the previous JLD, I just got into this book because I wanted to see a team led by Wonder Woman. Instead its Justice League Dark essentially guest starring the only character on the entire team that I have any interest in.
As for whether Constantine and Deadman are officially on the team I suppose it depends on how you count it. At this point hes with the team working with them, pushing them in specific directions, providing intel, and at this point whose actually leading the team seems split between him, Diana and Zatanna. Deadman popped up in the last three pages saying he heard the JLD reformed and he came to get help for Namby panda bat is under attack by Hecate

[MarquisAsh]

There was nothing wrong with the previous JLD, I just got into this book because I wanted to see a team led by Wonder Woman. Instead its Justice League Dark essentially guest starring the only character on the entire team that I have any interest in.
As for whether Constantine and Deadman are officially on the team I suppose it depends on how you count it. At this point hes with the team working with them, pushing them in specific directions, providing intel, and at this point whose actually leading the team seems split between him, Diana and Zatanna. Deadman popped up in the last three pages saying he heard the JLD reformed and he came to get help for Namby panda bat is under attack by Hecate

Deadman popped up because it’s an event. A lot of characters with magical backgrounds are appearing in the series. He’s not on the team. He’s a guest. Just like Constantine.

[Dr. Poison]

My guess is that Deadman will stick around but I can't see Constantine sticking around unless he's the leader.

[Vordan]

What was so bad about the previous JLDark? I didn't like it at first but once Lemire took over the book(and cast) were awesome. I haven't read this issue. Have Constantine and Deadman officially joined the team?

Well Janin was on art and I can’t stand his tracer “art”. So that made it a no go for me. I keep putting off Grayson simply because I can’t tolerate his art.

[kjn]

We got some interesting new tidbits in the history of magic in the DCU from Circe. Now, I think neither Nabu nor Circe are that trustworthy, but here is what we get from them:

Nabu in JLD 2, showing people (mostly men, but I believe also two women) entering and leaving a cave, and talking about the Primal Void:

It was the dawn of man. Primitive and wild. They were scientists. Explorers. Philosophers. They wished to put the world in order. In harmony with its elements. Like Prometheus, they found a power and dragged it into this world. To do their bidding. The first magic of this world. They were the Lords of Order. The great peacemakers. Sorcerer kings. The power was unspeakable. Their bodies could not hold it… so they bound themselves to artifacts that could focus and contain it, prevent it from spreading. But it was too late. The power had caught. Magic was spreading across this world like a disease. They taught means to guide and control the magic, tools of language, staffs, wands, rules, counterbalances… the tools of order. The means to prevent any being from handling the power in its rawest form. Together, they wrote the first books of magic.

Circe in WW 56, with a small frame showing a similar scene to Nabu, apart from other scenes involving Hecate:

Before the gods first walked the earth, before all the panthons of all the cultures of the world… there was Hecate. She was the primal woman incarnate. Maidenhood to motherhood to crone. Birth, creation, death. Her symbol was the full moon, the symbol of mankind's great collective unconscious. She represented nature itself and the potential of nature. They would come to call her the triple goddess of magic. The witch-mother. In the early days of man, when she still consorted with an open heart and mind, the first human magicians attempted to steal the unlimited power within her. But they failed, caging something darker, something that would slowly infect the world with darkness.

To protect her boundless power from the growing darkness, she broke it into five pieces and hid it within five young women until the hour came that she would need to take that power back [ … ]

For centuries she has hated what magic has become on this world. She has known that she could wield enough power to supplant it, if it became necessary. What you have told me of the Otherkind and the Upside-Down Man… I fear that time has come, she will burn out the hearts of magic on earth and replace them with her own power. If she succeeds, she will control all of magic like she can control the witchmarked, and prevent the Otherkind from ever crossing to our world. Understand this, too. Hecate may have once represented something light in this world, but she has become a twisted force of hate.

Adding some knowledge of Greek mythology (see the thread "Revisiting Olympos"), it seems that Hecate first shielded the world from the Primal Void. Some men tried to steal her power, but instead tapped into the Primal Void. Hecate split her own power into the witch-marked, but also herself became corrupted by the Primal Void, thus ending up as we saw her in WW/JLD The Witching Hour 1.

At the same time, I'd say that both Hecate and the original Lords of Order were working for order, in keeping things in their proper place, but both Hecate and the items seems to have been corrupted. That leads me to speculate that the conflict between Zatanna and Diana will carry over to the metaphysical level, with Zatanna not only fighting for Diana's soul, but Hecate's as well.

However, I'm unsure what the difference is, if any, between Hecate's power and the Primal Void.

Also, the pointer to that Hecate here also represents nature gives a clue that Swamp Thing will become a battleground in its own right. Right now he is the member of the team that is most apart from the rest and has contributed the least apart from brute strength.

[brettc1]

Wonder Woman finally gets an another event and instead of focusing on one of her original rogues, its focus is on a public domain character. DC did the same thing last time with War of the Gods. What a major let down. It's things like this that prevent Diana's rogues from getting the recognition and respect like Superman, Batman, and Green Lantern's rogues do. Heck, even Aquaman's events have focused on Ocean Master.

DC could have used the Queen of Fables or Dark Angel for this story instead of Hecate.

Oh gods no! If I NEVER see Dark Angel again it will be too soon.

Anyway, Circe is featuring large, which is great IMO. I hope we get to see a throw down between her and Fate

[Natamaxxx]

Oh gods no! If I NEVER see Dark Angel again it will be too soon.

Anyway, Circe is featuring large, which is great IMO. I hope we get to see a throw down between her and Fate

Oh, I'm down for that!!!

[thetrellan]

I think Diana is written pretty fairly, as someone sure of herself, used to take action, and always being able to help, but now thrust in a situation where she is no longer sure of herself and not able to help despite wanting to. That came up as early as in the JLD 2, when she lashed out at Zatanna but apologised shortly afterwards. It's also rather clear that Diana and Zatanna have been raised rather differently on how to deal with problems and legendary beings.

Yeah, it's pretty clear that Tynion has done his homework on Greek mythology. His Circe is more bored and a bit cruel than evil or actively malicious. Not sure about his take on Hecate, however, but here we get another piece of the puzzle from what Doctor Fate told Zatanna and Diana in JLD 2.

You think so? I myself was just thinking it would be nice to have a writer who knows the difference between unicorns and pegasi. It's a pretty basic distinction. But I suppose I demand too much. It doesn't look like anyone really noticed.