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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Guess I'm the only one who liked it. That's fine.

    I wonder if Gabriel and co will ever show up again?
    God, I hope not.

    I really never want to hear about Abigail, Diva, June, the Diogenesis (or whatever it’s called), Gabriel, Nakano, any of these terrible characters and subplots ever again.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, Ben Reilly is Spider-Man. My Spider-Man. When Clone Conspiracy happened, my first reaction was "Oh please god no, just let the man stay dead. Death is better than being brought back a villain."

    Apparently, I wasn't the only one. Because now Ben Reilly himself has had that exact same thought. PAD being meta? I feel like there is editorial mandate afoot here, but we'll never know.

    And I find myself of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, we finally got the real Ben back. For a few quick panels, Ben Reilly got to be a hero who would rather give his life than put others in danger. The man whose entire existence can be summed up with the phrase "sacrifice for others" finally returned, and got that one chance to be himself again.

    Then that other thing happened. And everything he did to try and put things right ends up damning him. The road to hell truly is paved with good intentions after all.

    I think, as an ending to a comic series about gray morality and the impact of the choices we make, for good or ill, this isn't bad. As an ending for Ben Reilly, it's mind numbingly awful. And we're right back to where we started, which is with a homicidal maniac running around calling himself Ben Reilly. Hopefully Spider-geddon kills him off again so fans of the character don't have to suffer through any more of this. I won't know, I have no intention of reading it.

    Suffice to say, this pretty much soured my entire day. Thanks Marvel!
    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Guess I'm the only one who liked it. That's fine.

    I wonder if Gabriel and co will ever show up again?
    Well, I can't say it was a pleasing ending, or that I liked it. But I do find it intriguing. And I agree with much of what Zero said, including Ben being "my Spider-Man." Yet I don't feel the doom and gloom that others feel, and here's why:

    Ben proved he was a hero, time and again. Even at the very end, he wanted to choose staying dead. When given the choice, he chose being good - being a hero - even if it meant his life. His last choice as a mortal was keeping an innocent safe by putting himself in danger. Ben was a hero.

    And now he's not -- but it's not his fault. Ben's soul has been shattered, and it's not his fault: his choices are no longer his own, because who he is has been fundamentally changed. It's almost as if his "morality switch" has been clicked off, through no fault of his own.

    So I'm going to continue following Ben's story, even if it means watching him as a villain. Who knows? Maybe it'll be fun to watch him indulge in being the Evil Twin for a while.

    I'll still be hoping for a true chance at redemption for Ben, and I believe the window has been left open for it to happen, eventually, if Marvel so chooses.

    *Sigh*

    Don't get me wrong: I'd love if Ben were the hero and Kaine still the deranged villain. But what can you do?

    You can hope that eventually the loose ends will be picked up and Ben will get another chance to be a hero.

    -Pav, who is curious about Ben's role in Spidergeddon and his potential rivalry with Ock...
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.
    You know what it means when he comes back
    .

    "You're not the better one, Peter. You're just older."
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    Closet full of comics? Consider donating to my school! DM for details

  3. #33
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    another brother roaming inverted and no one bothering to find out whether he is alive or dead or what not? okkk. can't say that the end was unexpected as deals with mephisto rarely end up having any good effects for the person entering the deal but the silly angel angel resurrecting Ben against his wishes is as decidedly against angel ditcum as possible as they are all about free choices and don't impose their will on mortals or perhaps these are more of the we know what's best for you kind. wtever

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Well, I can't say it was a pleasing ending, or that I liked it. But I do find it intriguing. And I agree with much of what Zero said, including Ben being "my Spider-Man." Yet I don't feel the doom and gloom that others feel, and here's why:

    Ben proved he was a hero, time and again. Even at the very end, he wanted to choose staying dead. When given the choice, he chose being good - being a hero - even if it meant his life. His last choice as a mortal was keeping an innocent safe by putting himself in danger. Ben was a hero.

    And now he's not -- but it's not his fault. Ben's soul has been shattered, and it's not his fault: his choices are no longer his own, because who he is has been fundamentally changed. It's almost as if his "morality switch" has been clicked off, through no fault of his own.

    So I'm going to continue following Ben's story, even if it means watching him as a villain. Who knows? Maybe it'll be fun to watch him indulge in being the Evil Twin for a while.

    I'll still be hoping for a true chance at redemption for Ben, and I believe the window has been left open for it to happen, eventually, if Marvel so chooses.

    *Sigh*

    Don't get me wrong: I'd love if Ben were the hero and Kaine still the deranged villain. But what can you do?

    You can hope that eventually the loose ends will be picked up and Ben will get another chance to be a hero.

    -Pav, who is curious about Ben's role in Spidergeddon and his potential rivalry with Ock...
    You know, I've had all day to stew on this issue, and I find myself somewhat falling into line with Pav on this the more I think about it. I'm not happy with the creative decisions made in this issue, but I'm not sure they are as damning as they look at first blush. At least, not necessarily.

    Firstly, as Pav notes, none of this is actually Ben's fault. This is something done TO HIM, against his will, by a being more powerful than he. (Again, I feel there is some really meta writing happening in this issue.) But also, that ending. Even a Ben whose soul has completely blackened and broken can weep and break down. I'm not entirely sure that the real Ben is truly gone. Buried deeper than he's been in a while, certainly, but still in there somewhere. I'm increasingly of the mindset that you can look at this ending as the beginning of, to draw a comparison with a Peter story, Superior Scarlet Spider. Change the adjective, probably more like Sinister in this case, but the point stands. Now, whether we'll ever actually SEE any of that remains to be seen. It's entirely possible, likely even, that Marvel has simply decreed that Ben be evil and we never speak of him again.

    And finally, it occurred to me while reading Superior Octopus that the latest iteration of the Jackal's technology actually leaves an out to get the original Ben back even if we're stuck with this new version too. It would just take a writer (and an editorial group) who actually wanted to do that. And if I've thought of it, a real writer could probably think of 10 better ways it could work. So it doesn't have to be the end for Ben Reilly. So back to hoping. And waiting.

  5. #35
    Incredible Member Naked Bat's Avatar
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    I'm in the same mood than Pav and ZeroBG82. I'm still shocked by this ending. But it's definitely a ballsy one and it makes me wonder what Ben will do next.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naked Bat View Post
    I'm in the same mood than Pav and ZeroBG82. I'm still shocked by this ending. But it's definitely a ballsy one and it makes me wonder what Ben will do next.
    Probably get killed in Spidergeddon. Seems Marvel is determined to make everyone hate Ben as much as their editorial office does.

    Then we’ll have to wait another 20 years for him to come back as that’s how long it is before they deem it okay to bring him out again (check out the pattern: 1975-1994-2016... so he’ll probaby come back in 2037 or something)

    I can’t get behind this ending or put it in a positive light. I get PAD was trying to subvert expectations and be unpredictable, but I think it was a massive miscalculation on his part and it might have finished the job Slott started during CC of permanently ruining the character.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    it’s superhero comics

    if hal jordan can be redeemed, so can ben
    troo fan or death

  8. #38
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    It was terrible and frankly the whole run was terrible.

    Bringing back Ben as a villain wasn't really an issue for me. A book about a character like Ben Reilly needed a hook to grab people in people that either never read the 90s clone saga or didn't care for it the first time, simply being Spider-Man but in hoodie just wouldn't cut it. Characters that have a very similar status like Bucky and Jason Todd were brought back as villains and their journey for redemption and becoming heroes/anti heroes made them much more popular than they were and every indication pointed that Ben could have had a similar path - heck they did it with Kaine they could easily do it with Ben.

    The problem was that it never felt like a Ben Reilly book. I understand that to new readers who don't know or care about what little history Ben Reilly had overloading the book with references and characters that build on Ben Reilly's 90s stories would alienate them but they should have incorporated slowly over time. Other than the inclusion of Kaine not a single story had anything to do with Ben Reilly Scarlet Spider. We could have had a spiritual sequel to Redemption, we could have brought back Janine to give Ben a proper love interest maybe she as someone who went down a dark path herself could stir Ben in the right direction. Maybe bring back some of Ben's rogues like Carolyn Trainer but instead we got Ben put into situations that had zero to do with him. Heck the Slingers were given a story more meaningful to them in the pages of Scarlet Spider.

    I appreciate Peter David's modern Marvel work is often taking characters in completely new directions like X-Factor becoming a private investigators, Spider-Man 2099 being in the present day etc but since they are characters he either created or defined you could say he earned the right to do that and since they were his characters they still felt like the originals and his stories still drew upon their histories. With his Scarlet Spider we got him putting a Spider-Man-like character that was a little crazy into bizarre situations that wouldn't suit the main Spidey books. It could have been a completely new character or Spidercide for all it had to do with Ben Reilly.

    It's not even that Ben "failed" in his quest for redemption. As others have said it isn't his fault, he's been manipulated by forces way beyond his control and the window is still open for his soul to be saved but that the journey had zero to do with Ben Reilly.
    Last edited by Orbus; 10-11-2018 at 08:39 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    He's laughing at first, and then it dies down into crying because on some level, he recognizes that he's done for and there'll be no redemption for him, after all. As Chester Bennington (R.I.P.) said, "I tried so hard, and got so far, but in the end, it doesn't even matter. I had to fall, to lose it all, but in the end, it doesn't even matter. . . ." And no, I am not being ironic, I am quite serious about this. That's how much of a tragic waste these last eighteen months have been.
    All I can think of is that scene in American Dad whenever I read those lyrics now...

  10. #40
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    Did PAD even try to explain how Mephisto escaped his imprisonment from the ending to Damnation?

  11. #41

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    Peter David has become one of the worst writers in the comic industry. This whole run had bad writing but this issue takes the cake. Even at the lowest points of the 90s clone saga the writing wasn't this horrible. What the hell was this issue? I am still completely shocked at the writing...

  12. #42

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    One thing I just thought of now: When Ben died this time, he didn't disintegrate.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member oldschool's Avatar
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    This is tough to admit but this whole series has been awful; I hate to say it because PAD has been one of my favorite writers but this book started off bad and slowly became unreadable for me. Some of it is that he was saddled with a pretty crappy scenario to start with but, over 2 years of stories, it never got better and arguably got worse.

    I really wish PAD would just be given a 616 Peter-centric book again.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    This is tough to admit but this whole series has been awful; I hate to say it because PAD has been one of my favorite writers but this book started off bad and slowly became unreadable for me. Some of it is that he was saddled with a pretty crappy scenario to start with but, over 2 years of stories, it never got better and arguably got worse.

    I really wish PAD would just be given a 616 Peter-centric book again.
    Why? So he can ruin Peter Parker too? Keep Peter David as faaaaar away from the Spider-Fam as possible.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    Why? So he can ruin Peter Parker too? Keep Peter David as faaaaar away from the Spider-Fam as possible.
    Exactly my thoughts. Peter David used to be a good writer but people change and he changed for the worse. Maybe he just needs some rest and take a break from writing. I am still shocked at just how bad this issue and the whole run was.

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