Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider #25. SPOILER WARNING.

[SuperiorIronman]

The Other was of course complete garbage but Spider-Verse was fun. Seeing all these different Spider-Man was a great concept.

I still say the only thing worth a damn about Spiderverse was seeing all these people in one place. But I can draw fan art depicting that same very thing so I wouldn't call it a good idea if it only serves that purpose. That's part of what hurt Web Warriors so much in that they didn't really offer anything of substance. Spiders (and characters in general) should be more than just aesthetic or background noise. Hell, that's why I take issue with such offhand killing of spiders in both Spidergeddon and Spiderverse, if it doesn't matter, why are we here?

[classicgmer]

Wait, I thought Mephisto was locked up and Johnny Blaze was ruling Hell now.

This is one of the things that irked me about the closing arc to this book. I've seen people dismiss this criticism away by saying " Damnation" wasn't that good but to me regardless of what people feel the quality of that event was dismissing/ignoring what happened there because it's inconvenient to the story or chacters PAD wanted to use is ridiculous.

[SuperiorPeterParker]

Honestly, all we can pray for right now is that the only people Ben kills in Spidergeddon are Inheritors. Even that might be hoping for too much.

[Miles To Go]

The Other was of course complete garbage but Spider-Verse was fun. Seeing all these different Spider-Man was a great concept.

Being a shallow slaughterfest isn't a great premise, and even as a concept it's not even an original one. The 90s cartoon pulled the same thing off twenty one years ago and it was vastly superior with barely a kill count (Spider-Carnage died, but that was it)

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Honestly, all we can pray for right now is that the only people Ben kills in Spidergeddon are Inheritors. Even that might be hoping for too much.

The one redeeming factor of Ben is that he hasn't yet killed anyone (though he's tried a few times). Kaine is the Spider-Man who kills (and Ock, if you count him as a Spider-Man).

[Huntsman Spider]

Being a shallow slaughterfest isn't a great premise, and even as a concept it's not even an original one. The 90s cartoon pulled the same thing off twenty one years ago and it was vastly superior with barely a kill count (Spider-Carnage died, but that was it)

And Spider-Carnage died because it was the only way he knew how to save all existence from himself, so there was an element of human tragedy and nonetheless heroic sacrifice that elevated Spider Wars above a pointless kill frenzy like Spider-Verse (and possibly Spider-Geddon).

[boots]

And Spider-Carnage died because it was the only way he knew how to save all existence from himself, so there was an element of human tragedy and nonetheless heroic sacrifice that elevated Spider Wars above a pointless kill frenzy like Spider-Verse (and possibly Spider-Geddon).

in that universe they didn’t reverse the clone saga reveal...so ben reilly was the “real deal” there from memory

it was a fun few eps

[Miles To Go]

in that universe they didn’t reverse the clone saga reveal...so ben reilly was the “real deal” there from memory

It was ambiguous.

"He's my clone, or maybe he's my clone, we're not sure"

[boots]

It was ambiguous.

"He's my clone, or maybe he's my clone, we're not sure"

had a google and the script notes said Peter was “the clone”. personally i prefer ambiguity anyway

[David Walton]

I'm not caught up with the series, only up to around issue 10 or something. PAD's writing is consistently great, I just couldn't get enthused about the premise. I feel like it's a solid story, it's just not Ben's story. So in my head-canon I read it as yet another clone of a clone and not the 'real' Ben Reilly.

Ben's whole thing was that he didn't break, even under greater pressure than Peter (who had a solid support system he lacked). He was a little more cynical, but he channeled that anger and world-weariness into doing the right thing. Hence why he made taking Venom down a priority when he found out about Peter's truce.

[Huntsman Spider]

I'm not caught up with the series, only up to around issue 10 or something. PAD's writing is consistently great, I just couldn't get enthused about the premise. I feel like it's a solid story, it's just not Ben's story. So in my head-canon I read it as yet another clone of a clone and not the 'real' Ben Reilly.

Ben's whole thing was that he didn't break, even under greater pressure than Peter (who had a solid support system he lacked). He was a little more cynical, but he channeled that anger and world-weariness into doing the right thing. Hence why he made taking Venom down a priority when he found out about Peter's truce.

That's a pretty good point. The Clone Conspiracy and onward portrayed a Ben Reilly that did break, and break most horrifically, and was never really able to put himself back together in spite of his best efforts. It's a great tragedy, but it's not how Ben's story should've ended (and hopefully, depending on whatever retcons need to be implemented, that won't be how it ends).

[boots]

That's a pretty good point. The Clone Conspiracy and onward portrayed a Ben Reilly that did break, and break most horrifically, and was never really able to put himself back together in spite of his best efforts. It's a great tragedy, but it's not how Ben's story should've ended (and hopefully, depending on whatever retcons need to be implemented, that won't be how it ends).

yeah, i can agree with all that.
thats not to say that it's unintetesting in a story where that one thing that defines a character is taken away but it just happened to be one of the things that i liked, so when it was removed...i had less to hook me in

[Pav]

I've been reading the conversations here and on Ben's appreciation page for the past week now, thinking about what to add to the conversation before this issue (and series) becomes old news.

First, I don't recall where I heard it, but I remember hearing/reading about someone's perception that people spend too much time analyzing and not enough time appreciating -- and sometimes having conversations with people about comics here makes me think that's true. I'm certainly guilty of over-analyzing, deconstructing -- and yet, for me, one of the best surprises about studying literature was the practice of being able to read something, not really enjoy it, and yet still be able to point to what worked, what was slightly interesting (even if not much was) -- the ability to appreciate. I find it to be a necessary skill when studying text as part of my job, but it's also helped me learn to just have fun with comics.

Somewhat related -- I don't think it's wise to say things like, "It's obvious Marvel hates Ben Reilly." I just don't think writers (or editors) think this way; I don't see a writer getting a job writing for Marvel, and then intentionally putting the characters they hate into their books in order to ruin them. It seems, to me, a tad overzealous. I get being emotional about characters we love, and I understand not liking the choices a creative team might make, but I would much rather have conversations with people who say "This choice wasn't for me" rather than "This was total trash" because the former option leaves room for discussion, whereas the latter pretty much shuts things down.

Now, as for Ben...

...

Ben Reilly is about opportunity.

At his onset, before any care was given to him as a character, he provided the opportunity for writers to truly pit Spider-Man against himself.

When he returned from exile in the '90s, he provided writers with so many opportunities -- not least among them, the eventual chance to write a single Peter Parker. As Scarlet Spider, Ben provided Marvel with a spider-themed secondary character, much like War Machine or US Agent worked for Iron Man and Captain America, respectively. And for a ten year old Pav, reading about Ben provided an opportunity to encounter some hugely important ideas - the search for meaning and purpose in a human life, the existence of the soul - that would lead to decades of further learning, studying, and eventually teaching.

The alternate-reality Spider-Ben that appeared in Spiderverse gave readers an opportunity to imagine a world in which Ben kept on winning -- in which his struggles truly strengthened him -- and even if he sacrificed himself to save the other Scarlet Spiders, we know how the Marvel Multiverse works: there are infinite Spider-Bens who keep on winning.

Yet, the 616 gave us something different: the opportunity to watch Ben - and therefore Peter Parker - become something he's never been before. This is pure conjecture on my part, but I believe that the current staff at Marvel -- who obviously wanted to use Ben and like the character - saw potential for Ben as a dark mirror to Peter (as opposed to hating him and wanting to ruin him). Now, I'll admit that the execution wasn't always there: Slott was okay at first, but when Ben started laughing maniacally, I was disappointed; and PAD's Ben often lacked cohesiveness as a character (although this may have been purposeful). But even if the series wasn't perfect, I think the ideas behind the run had some merit. In fact, if I would've been the writer allowed to bring back Ben, I might've made him more of an anti-hero myself! (So I love the idea of Scarlet Carnage?! Shoot me.) I don't think the idea of Ben as "something other than what he was" is inevitably horrible: I just think the execution has to work. It can't fall flat.

Peter Parker is a fully three-dimensional character, and therefore Ben has to be as well.

And even if this series didn't always do that, I still loved having the opportunity to read new stories about Ben Reilly. I loved having the opportunity to come here and discuss with others, or on Twitter where I've tried establishing a little "Scarlet Spider Fans" community. The opportunity to take the ride was joyous for me, even if the comic itself wasn't always joyous.

Before I started writing this, I re-read the final issue. And y'know what?

I almost like it now.

There are some subtle things that I was able to appreciate.

Philosophically, I appreciate the opportunity to question some notions about morality. Specifically, is Ben selfish for wanting to be good so badly? If so, does that taint his desire to be a good person?

I appreciate the ambiguity that PAD provides us in regards to Ben's future: Mephisto says that Angel Abigail has no idea what she's unleashing upon the world; Angel Abigail tells Ben that he's being rewarded for being a hero and that he'll thank her later -- that he could never be evil.

This leads me to the end of the issue: upon being resurrected, Ben says he doesn't feel different - doesn't feel like his soul's been shattered - until he unhesitatingly goes for the kill against Robot Misty, and realizes he no longer cares about such things. In fact, he finds enjoyment in his lack of caring, and this newfound freedom leads directly toward the assault on Kaine.

What comes next remains to be seen. If Ben returns as a two-dimensional spider-villain, I will be disappointed. It certainly could happen.

But I think PAD was providing Ben with much more nuance here than others gave him credit for: Ben doesn't need to be portrayed as "evil" in the traditional sense. Instead - and more interestingly, I think - is the notion that Ben is finally free from the shackles of his/Peter's sense of morality. In a sense, Ben is potentially being given the chance to truly be his own man, free from the constraints placed upon him by the conscience of Peter Parker. Yet, for the readers and writers, he presents a potential opportunity for stories about a Peter Parker who no longer allows his guilt to guide his actions. This Ben has no qualms with threatening the life of Kaine, the man who made his life a living hell -- and, y'know, shot and killed him.

But that doesn't mean Ben has to be a villain. Abigail said so herself: Ben is a hero. He could never be a villain.

I hope for the opportunity to read such a nuanced follow-up to PAD's series, with Ben trying to be a hero as he sees fit and embracing the darker elements that have always inhabited Peter Parker.

I also acknowledge that, in this final issue, Angel Abigail may have very well been Gabriel; nothing "she" said may be true at all.

In that case, I will hope for the opportunity for Ben to redeem himself; and I'll enjoy every opportunity to read his further adventures.

One more thing: that last page, with Ben both laughing and crying -- I appreciate that page. I feel like I've had moments like that in my life -- staring out into the sunset -- where I truly feel free in the world -- a beautiful and yet tragic freedom, that makes me laugh and cry as well.

Thanks for reading, friends. It's been so fun.

-Pav, who had a friendly convo with the fella who did the art in this issue (and dude said he grew up reading about Ben too)...!!!

[Huntsman Spider]

That's actually a pretty interesting and well-thought take on all things Ben Reilly. While I still don't appreciate what was done to/with his character, I can acknowledge that writers and editors who work for comics companies don't necessarily go in thinking, "I hate this character, I'm gonna f*** him/her up so badly s/he will become too toxic for anyone to use and I'll never have to put up with him/her in my comics again! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" That being said, the philosophical angle that has always been essential to Ben's existence --- the meaning of life and morality and who gets to decide or define that --- is definitely worth continuing to explore. Given the threat to all spider-based life presented by the Inheritors in Spider-Geddon, even this iteration of Ben Reilly, having been resurrected through cloning himself, could have a perspective worth digging into, assuming Christos Gage wants to go there and not just discard him as a failed experiment.

[HypnoHustler]

I really appreciate your posts, Pav. You have a sense of optimism and willingness to see the good in even the worst situations.... kind of like classic Ben.

That said, I can't share your optimistic outlook. I think Ben as a character is well and truly broken. Not just literally, but figuratively as well. The only thing that can fix the situation at this point is retconning NuBen to be a brainwashed Spidercide or something.