Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider #25. SPOILER WARNING.

[Spiderfang]

So in order to enjoy a comic that outright character assassinates a cult favourite, you have to be a non-fan?

I suggest you go back and read the Epic collections of the Clone Saga and spruse up a bit on how Ben was handled in the past, maybe you'll change your mind and realise why this book's ending fails on so many fundamental levels.

Watch out friend you're dangerously close to being a what was it, oh "elitist". Anyway I agree as it goes without saying, bad writing is bad writing and even I can admit to stanning bad stories solely because of who wrote them.

[Miles To Go]

Watch out friend you're dangerously close to being a what was it, oh "elitist". Anyway I agree as it goes without saying, bad writing is bad writing and even I can admit to stanning bad stories solely because of who wrote them.

There's a couple of Vampirella books I read as a lad that I both liked and disliked. I'm still a complete stranger to that franchise, but that doesn't mean my nose doesn't home in on the smell of bull dookie when I read it. I'm not even the biggest Ben Reily fan (I like him, just don't love him) and I can tell this book's a stinker

[Spiderfang]

It almost hurts to think about how much potential Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider could have had with the right setting, the right characters, the right narrative. I only hope that if Ben does somehow end up surviving Spidergeddon, that a less egotistical and bitter writer with a modicum of talent can salvage the dumpster fire that was started by Slott, and fanned further by PAD.

[Naked Bat]

What brilliant story telling! Peter David clearly hasn't lost his touch! Oh wait...so Ben is dead and inside the paramedics car, when he wakes while the car is at a random spot in the city, he jumps out of the car and up a building and somehow Misty stands on the rooftoop of that exact building without build up or having anything to do with the rest of this arc so she confronts him and he punches a hole through her and notices she isn't a real human after, she is a robot. Amazing story telling! It's like a 5 year old wrote this story. Not to mention Mephisto not being imprisoned anymore without explanation which was completely pointless because it only lasted a few issues or Abigail becoming an angel and being still alive at the same time because of the antidote.

Man, you really need to chill. I can't even imagine how you would react if something didn't go according to what you hope for in real life.

[Miles To Go]

Man, you really need to chill. I can't even imagine how you would react if something didn't go according to what you hope for in real life.

Let's all chill really. Getting temperamental over the book is one thing, but let's not start telling people off when they're expressing valid opinions.

I admit to being a bit out-of-step earlier, which I apologise for. If people like this issue, good for them, but let's not vilify those who didn't.

[oldschool]

Let's throttle back, people; no need to get so aggressive over this.

[Spiderfang]

Yea at the end of the day it really IS just a book, fortunately the damage done to Ben can be remedied with the right plot and writer.

[Kurolegacy]

He has been since clone conspiracy.

Edit: Oh wait Slott retconned it so Ben was already the Jackal during Spider-Island so yeah he was willing to kill since then.

No Slott didn’t retcon him to being the Jackel during Spider-Island because in the flashback he found the other Jackel costumes to be silly and went straight for the scarlet suit and Jackel mask. Besides, the Jackel from Spider-Island was another Warren clone who the Queen killed close to the end.

[Scarlet-Spider]

Man, you really need to chill. I can't even imagine how you would react if something didn't go according to what you hope for in real life.

I was completely chill writing that, stop assuming you know a person from reading a forum post. I was being sarcastic because the "Peter David didn't lose his touch" made me seriously laugh. Anyone who says that clearly hasn't read older Peter David comics. His run on Scarlet-Spider is several leagues below his work in the past. His first run on Spider-Man 2099 in the 90s was great and so was his X-Factor run. It's like comparing Jeph Loebs early work like Batman The Long Halloween and then reading his Ultimatum mini series or his Ultimates 3 run and saying he hasn't lost his touch. No one says Peter David can't get his touch back but this run wasn't even remotely close to previous Peter David quality.

[classicgmer]

Yea at the end of the day it really IS just a book, fortunately the damage done to Ben can be remedied with the right plot and writer.

This all true but to me the real question is if Marvel will allow anyone to alter the current trajectory for the character? To me they brought Ben back as they did because they truly believe this is the only way he can be a compelling character these days.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

People like me are angry because we waited 20 years for Ben Reilly to come back, enduring one fake tease after another of his return. Then, we finally get him back, but Marvel craps all over his character. THEN, Marvel sets up what appears to be a redemption arc for him, just to crap all over his character AGAIN. It's gotten way past old.

[Celgress]

People like me are angry because we waited 20 years for Ben Reilly to come back, enduring one fake tease after another of his return. Then, we finally get him back, but Marvel craps all over his character. THEN, Marvel sets up what appears to be a redemption arc for him, just to crap all over his character AGAIN. It's gotten way past old.

quoted for truth

[boots]

I was completely chill writing that, stop assuming you know a person from reading a forum post. I was being sarcastic because the "Peter David didn't lose his touch" made me seriously laugh. Anyone who says that clearly hasn't read older Peter David comics. His run on Scarlet-Spider is several leagues below his work in the past. His first run on Spider-Man 2099 in the 90s was great and so was his X-Factor run. It's like comparing Jeph Loebs early work like Batman The Long Halloween and then reading his Ultimatum mini series or his Ultimates 3 run and saying he hasn't lost his touch. No one says Peter David can't get his touch back but this run wasn't even remotely close to previous Peter David quality.

i haven't enjoyed current PAD as much as old school PAD...but "losing his touch" is only one of many possible reasons why (i mean, my tastes have changed in 20 years. i'd find it weird if i still had the same tastes as when i was 10).

naked bat and pav make good points, even if i don't agree, they both make clear cases for why someone could like the story.

in the mid ground, i feel like if PAD had double the pages to expand on #25...it might have made more sense.

[boots]

Let's all chill really. Getting temperamental over the book is one thing, but let's not start telling people off when they're expressing valid opinions.

I admit to being a bit out-of-step earlier, which I apologise for. If people like this issue, good for them, but let's not vilify those who didn't.

hey man, thats really cool of you to say. i catch myself sometimes in similar situations.

[Orbus]

i'm with you on some of this. i feel like ben as villain/anti hero/path to redemption might have worked...it just never felt earned.

for the character or the audience.

the character just returns after 20 years in a totally different state and it was too hard for audiences to bridge the gap between the iterations. a 1 page explanation in clone conspiracy just did not cut it. Even if we were able to understand his "fall from grace" logically, we couldn't empathise emotionally.

something like what waid did in "irredeemable" would work. a series of flashbacks, showing ben's struggle with his mental illness and to fight the degredation of his character over time...snippets that build into a full picture of what brought ben to the state he's in today.

otherwise it's a big black hole that nobody can fill in.

I'd argue there's few people out there currently buying monthly issues of Marvel comics that were around during the 90s Clone Saga to care that Ben was brought back different. For readers of the Clone Saga and were fans of the character while they may be miffed I think would be have been seen as a good thing had they gotten a series were he was redeemed. Think of how Bucky, Jason Todd and even Kaine are far more popular now than they were when they were killed.

Also I'd say that the Amazing Spider-Man tie-in issue to the Clone Conspiracy did a fair job via flash backs to his continued torture of how he mentally fell. You're right that we should have seen more of that in the actual Scarlet Spider book but I'm not sure PAD was really interested in referencing the Clone Conspiracy or indeed the 90s Clone Saga, it came across like he did the bare minimum of that because he had to. I just feel he wanted to do a book about an insane and morally challenged Spider-Man in wacky situations, the fact that he was supposed to be Ben Reilly felt incidental.

Strangely we did get an attempt at a redemption/anti-hero arc with the book but rather the traditional version of that were we would see a darker Ben fighting crime, establishing relationships that he soften him and being placed in situations which test his morality, maybe making some missteps along the way but ultimately doing the right thing which when the run was over would have felt earned we got a redemption arc via Death playing games with him. For most of the run past #7 it felt like Ben was doing good less because he was good but more because Death would scar him if he didn't. I get what PAD was trying to do with this but which undermines any real attempt at Ben trying to redeem himself.